The kingdom is not for now?

[gordon 2]

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

If the kingdom is not for now as some bible believers would understand and is only an item when Jesus returns... why did Jesus say the above? How could he say, " ye neither go in yourselves" and " neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in"?

If the kingdom was not an item of spiritual life at the time Jesus said this, why did he bother saying it? If it was not in existence, why bother saying " for ye neither go in yourselves" when there was no such thing as the kingdom for these Pharisees to go into? What am I not understanding?

Can someone who is bible based explain to me how the above verse can be reconciled by some who are bible based that the Kingdom will occur and only occur when Christ returns ( Second Coming)? This is a serious question for discussion. I'm looking for serious answers.

 

[crackerdave]

I think the Kingdom is being built day by day.Every new believer is a part of it,and it will all come together at the return of Jesus.

 

[gordon 2]

I think the Kingdom is being built day by day.Every new believer is a part of it,and it will all come together at the return of Jesus.

That's how I see it also. But many don't, especially if they are bible based. I'd like to know why when the verse above would indicate more as you and I understand it. Or am I blind to something? Or due something?

 

[crackerdave]

The feeling I get when I lead someone to Jesus gives me a feeling of belonging to the Kingdom here and now.

 

[tell sackett]

Verse is present tense

 

[gordon 2]

Verse is present tense

Yes that is exactly how I read it.

 

[Madman]

Many see the kingdom of God only from an ecclesiastical perspective. That is certainly one way to see it. The Church, a mix of wheat and weeds, that will be sorted at the end. There is also a Christological element. “Repent the kingdom of God is at hand”. When Christ, the second person of the Trinity became incarnate, he makes it known that in him God is present.

And there is a mystical element, the kingdom of God is in the heart of the Christian,

“those who pray for the coming of the Kingdom of God pray without any doubt for the Kingdom of God that they contain in themselves, and they pray that this kingdom might bear fruit and attain its fullness.” Origen Father of the Chirch

 

[gordon 2]

Many see the kingdom of God only from an ecclesiastical perspective. That is certainly one way to see it. The Church, a mix of wheat and weeds, that will be sorted at the end. There is also a Christological element. “Repent the kingdom of God is at hand”. When Christ, the second person of the Trinity became incarnate, he makes it known that in him God is present.

And there is a mystical element, the kingdom of God is in the heart of the Christian,

“those who pray for the coming of the Kingdom of God pray without any doubt for the Kingdom of God that they contain in themselves, and they pray that this kingdom might bear fruit and attain its fullness.” Origen Father of the Chirch

Quote "Many see the kingdom of God only from an ecclesiastical perspective." Unquote.

Thank you. I never though of how ecclesiastical perspective or the kingdom as the Christian Church and so especially having the perspective that Christendom or the Christian world is failed due to unrighteousness due to conflict and war within itself and that the kingdom can only be at the end time a marriage of the Lord, when the bridegroom claims his bride, --- to the sifted and so real and righteous Church.

I have to wonder, think about, how an understanding that Christendom or that the Christian world is failed so completely it must that the times are ripe of the Bridegroom's second advent, and that the kingdom can only be a rule by the Kingdom in Heaven on a church paradise here on earth.

Maybe.

Again thank you for you thoughtful points. As you probably guessed I'm trying to get a grip on how William Miller's fascinations with old testament prophecy might account for all the Millerite sects.

The idea, the notice, the glaring similarities, that the uncomfortable world in which one lives in, with waring and strife ripe in our Christian times, that this is not so much unlike the handbasket going to its doom in the paralleled account of Old Testament prophecy's rage against all unrighteousness. This does make "the kingdom" of our Gospel null and void and to jump out of our time, out of Christianity itself, and so the plotting point for God's kingdom on earth would be when the Bridegroom returns, at the Second Advent, and so out of our times completely. The good news of the Christian is not the good news of the Adventist.

Due to the perspective that fear and hate are ever on the increase despite Christianity or due to the apostacy of Christianity vs that fear and hate are in fact ever on the decrease and love is on the increase due to a Christianity seen as effective, when seen as defective a new faith must occur and so a mirror image of the old kingdom is reclaimed, a kingdom in time not unlike the ancient paradise related to in the Old Testament.

Jesus is again a parable talker to the unrighteous Christians in general. The Christian is not unlike those in Jesus' days who could not understand what he was talking about. So Christians think they know how to interpret scripture, but they don't. With confidence the Adventist can claim correct interpretation of scripture if only by simple distancing from the Christian world, which is deemed unrighteous and especially in apostasy of God's intent for man.

Maybe.

I also have to wonder how the civil war affected people's spiritual views that they were perhaps primed to Miller's fascinations. Did the civil war make some feel that the City on the Hill was at war with itself and something had to give?

 

[BanjoPicker]

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

If the kingdom is not for now as some bible believers would understand and is only an item when Jesus returns... why did Jesus say the above? How could he say, " ye neither go in yourselves" and " neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in"?

If the kingdom was not an item of spiritual life at the time Jesus said this, why did he bother saying it? If it was not in existence, why bother saying " for ye neither go in yourselves" when there was no such thing as the kingdom for these Pharisees to go into? What am I not understanding?

Can someone who is bible based explain to me how the above verse can be reconciled by some who are bible based that the Kingdom will occur and only occur when Christ returns ( Second Coming)? This is a serious question for discussion. I'm looking for serious answers.

Entrance into the Two Kingdoms, to make clear the technical difference in entrance into the two kingdoms. The Kingdom of God on Earth now is mainly spiritual and in a sense includes only those who are willingly subject to the will of God. It takes in those who are not willingly subject to God in the same sense that any kingdom includes rebels. God's purpose in establishing the Kingdom of Heaven and sending His Son with an expeditionary force from Heaven is to put down rebellion in this earthly part of the universal Kingdom of God. After this is done the kingdom of Heaven is submerged into the Kingdom of God, and God becomes supreme over all as before rebellion started in the universe. as in any kingdom, during the rebellion rebels could not be considered a part of the kingdom or subjects of the king they are rebelling against, until they become reconciled or submissive again. When the Messiah puts down all rebellion and every enemy is destroyed, then everyone in the universe, except the rebels who are confined to eternal He11, will be willing subjects of God. God becomes all in all as before the rebellion. The Son becomes subject to the Father, but continues to reign with the Father forever and ever Isa. 9:6, 7; Dan. 7:13, 14; Lk. 1:32-35; Rev. 11:15; 1 Cor. 15:24-28.

Both the professed sons and the true sons of God are in the Kingdon of Heaven in this age., and these with the rest of the universe are in the universal Kingdom of God, but God recognizes only the true sons of God as being in the Kingdom of God. This is why one must be born again in order to become a willing subject of God and a part of His Kingdom Jn. 3:1-8; Rom. 8:1-13. One does not have to born again to be recognized as a part of the Kingdom of Heaven. in this age, for it is the sphere of profession Mt. 13, but one must be born again in order to be a true subject of God and have a part in the Kingdom of Heaven in the next age Mt 5:3, 5, 10; 18:3.

In conclusion, it may be stated that the Kingdom of Heaven is the kingdom that God gives His Son and the glorified saints. It is the one promised to David which will come universal over all other kingdoms in the Earth. It is called "my kingdom" Lk. 22:30; Jn. 18:36. It was so recognized by the disciples Mt. 20:21, Lk. 23:42. It is the kingdom God has prepared for the righteous since the foundation of the world Mt. 25:34. It is the one that was first announced by John the Baptist Mt. 3:2, 3 and by Christ and the apostles Mt. 4:17; 10:7 as being "at hand," but it was rejected and is now in the abeyance until the return of the Kind. Then it will be established as a separate kingdom from Heaven for the purpose of re-establishing the Kingdom of God on Earth forever.

 

[ddd-shooter]

Don’t forget who came preaching
“The kingdom of God is at hand…”

 

[gordon 2]

Entrance into the Two Kingdoms, to make clear the technical difference in entrance into the two kingdoms. The Kingdom of God on Earth now is mainly spiritual and in a sense includes only those who are willingly subject to the will of God. It takes in those who are not willingly subject to God in the same sense that any kingdom includes rebels. God's purpose in establishing the Kingdom of Heaven and sending His Son with an expeditionary force from Heaven is to put down rebellion in this earthly part of the universal Kingdom of God. After this is done the kingdom of Heaven is submerged into the Kingdom of God, and God becomes supreme over all as before rebellion started in the universe. as in any kingdom, during the rebellion rebels could not be considered a part of the kingdom or subjects of the king they are rebelling against, until they become reconciled or submissive again. When the Messiah puts down all rebellion and every enemy is destroyed, then everyone in the universe, except the rebels who are confined to eternal He11, will be willing subjects of God. God becomes all in all as before the rebellion. The Son becomes subject to the Father, but continues to reign with the Father forever and ever Isa. 9:6, 7; Dan. 7:13, 14; Lk. 1:32-35; Rev. 11:15; 1 Cor. 15:24-28.

Both the professed sons and the true sons of God are in the Kingdon of Heaven in this age., and these with the rest of the universe are in the universal Kingdom of God, but God recognizes only the true sons of God as being in the Kingdom of God. This is why one must be born again in order to become a willing subject of God and a part of His Kingdom Jn. 3:1-8; Rom. 8:1-13. One does not have to born again to be recognized as a part of the Kingdom of Heaven. in this age, for it is the sphere of profession Mt. 13, but one must be born again in order to be a true subject of God and have a part in the Kingdom of Heaven in the next age Mt 5:3, 5, 10; 18:3.

In conclusion, it may be stated that the Kingdom of Heaven is the kingdom that God gives His Son and the glorified saints. It is the one promised to David which will come universal over all other kingdoms in the Earth. It is called "my kingdom" Lk. 22:30; Jn. 18:36. It was so recognized by the disciples Mt. 20:21, Lk. 23:42. It is the kingdom God has prepared for the righteous since the foundation of the world Mt. 25:34. It is the one that was first announced by John the Baptist Mt. 3:2, 3 and by Christ and the apostles Mt. 4:17; 10:7 as being "at hand," but it was rejected and is now in the abeyance until the return of the Kind. Then it will be established as a separate kingdom from Heaven for the purpose of re-establishing the Kingdom of God on Earth forever.

OK. Thank you. Much appreciated.

There is lots to absorb in your presentation. I need to ask these questions:

When are we born again? Can we be born again now, today, in the present age or is being born again a feature of the next age when the "Kingdom of God" is established on Earth forever? Can we be born again in this age to the Kingdom of Heaven and then also reborn again to the Kingdom of God? Three births are possible? Or only two because we are disqualified from being born again in this age?

Also on the view that the kingdom" at hand" was rejected, can you explain this rejection? Who rejected the kingdom " at hand"? And this rejection did it null and void the "at hand" kingdom possibly and originally intended for this age?

 

[Madman]

Quote "Many see the kingdom of God only from an ecclesiastical perspective." Unquote.

Thank you. I never though of how ecclesiastical perspective or the kingdom as the Christian Church and so especially having the perspective that Christendom or the Christian world is failed due to unrighteousness due to conflict and war within itself and that the kingdom can only be at the end time a marriage of the Lord, when the bridegroom claims his bride, --- to the sifted and so real and righteous Church.

I have to wonder, think about, how an understanding that Christendom or that the Christian world is failed so completely it must that the times are ripe of the Bridegroom's second advent, and that the kingdom can only be a rule by the Kingdom in Heaven on a church paradise here on earth.

Maybe.

Again thank you for you thoughtful points. As you probably guessed I'm trying to get a grip on how William Miller's fascinations with old testament prophecy might account for all the Millerite sects.

The idea, the notice, the glaring similarities, that the uncomfortable world in which one lives in, with waring and strife ripe in our Christian times, that this is not so much unlike the handbasket going to its doom in the paralleled account of Old Testament prophecy's rage against all unrighteousness. This does make "the kingdom" of our Gospel null and void and to jump out of our time, out of Christianity itself, and so the plotting point for God's kingdom on earth would be when the Bridegroom returns, at the Second Advent, and so out of our times completely. The good news of the Christian is not the good news of the Adventist.

Due to the perspective that fear and hate are ever on the increase despite Christianity or due to the apostacy of Christianity vs that fear and hate are in fact ever on the decrease and love is on the increase due to a Christianity seen as effective, when seen as defective a new faith must occur and so a mirror image of the old kingdom is reclaimed, a kingdom in time not unlike the ancient paradise related to in the Old Testament.

Jesus is again a parable talker to the unrighteous Christians in general. The Christian is not unlike those in Jesus' days who could not understand what he was talking about. So Christians think they know how to interpret scripture, but they don't. With confidence the Adventist can claim correct interpretation of scripture if only by simple distancing from the Christian world, which is deemed unrighteous and especially in apostasy of God's intent for man.

Maybe.

I also have to wonder how the civil war affected people's spiritual views that they were perhaps primed to Miller's fascinations. Did the civil war make some feel that the City on the Hill was at war with itself and something had to give?

I didn’t pin Miller to your OP but in retrospect…….

It has been many years since I read the sects. Years ago I heard a statement, by someone:

The FBI is the best detector of counterfeit currency in the world, and they have gotten that way by studying the real currency. When they see a counterfeit they know it.

I study the original as much as possible. The Church Fathers, the Doctors of the Church, the writing of the Saints, the monks, the hermits, the martyrs, the Holy Scriptures of ancient Christianity. The Church in the west, the Orthodox, the Coptic, the Nazarenes, the first 7 ecumenical councils, etc.

They hold the faith as it has been passed down to the saints.

What did they believe, how did they worship, how did they pray, what were their practices?

Jeremiah 6:16
This is what the Lord says:
“Stand at the crossroads and look;
ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.


God’s peace

 

[Spotlite]

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you”

The Kingdom of God is where He reins and right now He reins in our hearts. If you’re His…..you’re in His spiritual kingdom. Whatever awaits on the other side you’ll end up there in His kingdom.