The Forgiveness of Sins

NoOne

Gone but not forgotten.
“[Christ] in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph. 1:7).​

A businessman near St. Louis recently received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and was rejoicing in the knowledge of sins forgiven. Lately, however, he has become conscious of sin creeping back into his Christian life. Haunting fears of an angry God keep torturing his tender conscience as he wonders if God still accepts him.

A suburban housewife has a husband who is an alcoholic. Early this morning, he came home drunk with a major dent in the family car. He is sorry but she knows, if she forgives him, he will just do it again.

An 83 year old woman near Kansas City sits alone in a large, empty house. Years ago, her family hurt her very deeply. At one time she wanted to forgive but they have never acknowledged that the offense ever took place. “How could they have done such a thing,” she asks. Now she awaits death and deliverance from the bitterness and disillusionment that binds her.

The above examples are more than just hypothetical. There are countless similar cases being lived out every day in homes and churches throughout our land. Does Christianity have the answer? It depends on what “Christian” you ask. One of the most misunderstood doctrines in the Word of God is the issue of the forgiveness of sins. I am convinced that two of the most difficult things to teach a Christian is (1) his sins have been completely and eternally forgiven and (2) this forgiveness should now be extended to others.

Why all the difference of opinion on a subject so foundational to the Christian life? As with so many themes in the Bible, the failure to “rightly divide the Word of truth” has led sincere believers in Christ to inconsistent positions on forgiveness. They say, “Thank God that He has forgiven me all my sins but….” Then they begin to list conditions which they believe they must meet if God is to accept them.

FORGIVENESS UNDER GRACE

Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the mysteries of God to the Church which is His Body, gives only one condition—belief in his gospel. According to the above Scripture from Ephesians 1:7, the forgiveness of sins is intimately linked with our redemption which in turn is based upon Christ’s sacrificial blood and the riches of His grace. Also, notice carefully that forgiveness (as with all our spiritual blessings) is past tense for the believer in Christ. We have redemption…the forgiveness of sins.

For those who need further confirmation of this wonderful news, please consider prayerfully these additional examples from Paul’s epistles:

“And be ye kind one to another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you” (Eph. 4:32).​


“In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins” (Col. 1:14).​


“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses” (Col. 2:13).​


“Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye” (Col. 3:13).​


“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, `Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin'” (Rom. 4:5-8).​


“Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man [Jesus Christ] is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses” (Acts 13:38,39).​

The above verses represent the teaching on forgiveness for the present dispensation of the grace of God (Eph. 3:1-9). The instructed grace believer knows that man is by nature dead in trespasses and sins and as such cannot merit a place in heaven with God (Eph. 2:1,8,9). The love of God has provided forgiveness for fallen man through the blood of His Son. Faith in Jesus Christ is the responsibility which a Sovereign God has placed upon man in response to His love. “Christ died for our sins… and rose again” is the gospel which Paul received from the glorified Lord Jesus and preached wherever he went (I Cor. 15:1-4). The Holy Spirit of God then takes the believing sinner and supernaturally baptizes him into Christ, thus establishing an eternal union (I Cor. 12:13). This has been testified to by the revelation that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ because the Holy Spirit has sealed us until the day of redemption (His coming) (Rom. 8:31-39; Eph. 1:13,14; 4:30).

The knowledge of these scriptural facts give the believer great peace and joy unspeakable. But as is the case with so many Bible subjects, those who want to homogenize the Word of God go to forgiveness teachings given to Israel for a past dispensation and arbitrarily transplant them into the present dispensation of Grace. The result is fear, doubt, and a lack of boldness in our prayer life.

FORGIVENESS UNDER THE LAW

At this point, it may be beneficial to contrast forgiveness under the law of Moses.

“If My people, which are called by My name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land” (II Chron. 7:14).​

What an oft quoted verse used by sincere preachers wishing to see our country restored to moral and spiritual greatness! Indeed there is wise counsel here for believers of all ages. Spirit-led humility, prayer, seeking God’s face and turning from sin should produce a tremendous revival in the Church today. But take a closer look at the verse. “My people which are called by My name” refers to Israel under the law—not the Church under grace. The land to be healed is not America but Palestine. Now note the conditional nature of this forgiveness. “If My people shall…then will I forgive.” This “if-then” syndrome so characteristic of the covenant of the law brings us all the way back to Exodus 19:5. “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine.”

This system of conditional blessing is stated repeatedly throughout the Old Testament books of Exodus-Malachi. If Israel obeyed God’s covenant (the law), God would bless them. If they disobeyed, God would curse them (Deut. 28). This is not how God deals with believers today. We have already been blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1:3,7). This includes the forgiveness of sins.

In relation to the II Chronicles 7:14 passage, we must recognize the difference between interpretation and application. Since all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable, there are truths in this verse which can speak to us today, but only as we apply them in light of the revelation of the mystery given to us through the Apostle Paul (Rom. 16:25; Col. 1:25-27). The verse as it stands with its conditional blessings belongs by interpretation to Israel under the law.

While some have come to acknowledge the difference between the Mosaic and Pauline systems of blessing (including forgiveness), fewer have seen that conditional forgiveness is carried into the non-Pauline writings of the New Testament.1 Consider the following:

“And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt. 6:12,14,15).​


“And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses” (Matt. 18:34,35).​


“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses” (Mark 11:25,26).​


“Forgive and ye shall be forgiven” (Luke 6:37c).​


“If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, `I repent;’ thou shalt forgive him” (Luke 17:3,4).​

Note carefully that forgiveness in the above examples is extended by the heavenly Father only when forgiveness is first extended to others. Likewise the other is forgiven only if he repents. The order is: (1) Offense committed (2) Confrontation and rebuke (3) Repentance of offender (4) Forgiveness extended by victim (5) God’s forgiveness extended. This teaching shows forgiveness in relation to the millennial phase of the kingdom of God on earth according to Prophecy (Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; Rev. 5:10).

In contrast, Paul’s writings reveal that the believer in Christ today is working from a position of perpetual forgiveness from which he is free to forgive others.

“Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you” (Eph. 4:32).​


“Forgiving one another…even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye” (Col. 3:13).​

This teaching shows forgiveness in relation to the heavenly phase of the kingdom of God according to the Mystery (Rom. 16:25; I Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:4; II Tim. 4:18). As Scofield has so aptly stated, “Under law forgiveness is conditioned upon a like spirit in us; under grace we are forgiven for Christ’s sake, and exhorted to forgive because we have been forgiven.”

What a difference between law and grace—between conditional and unconditional forgiveness! Both systems are consistent with God’s character and work according to His plan for the ages. But how we should rejoice in being saved members of the Body of Christ during this present dispensation of the grace of God! It shows that while God Himself never changes, His dealings with man do change through the course of history and prophecy.

Some may still object that the forgiveness teachings of Jesus while on earth represent doctrine which was later written to us as members of the present day Church. They further argue that we also should make our forgiveness conditional. This they do because of traditional assumptions and a fear that grace will be abused.

First of all, we agree that “whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning” (Rom. 15:4). All of Scripture is equally inspired of God but is profitable only as it is rightly divided (II Tim. 2:15; 3:16). Secondly, let us understand that Jesus’ earthly ministry was only to the Jews according to prophecy (Matt. 10:5,6; 15:21-28; Mark 7:24-30; Rom. 15:8). Thirdly, our Lord’s life and teaching did not nullify the covenant of the law given through Moses on Mt. Sinai (Matt. 5:17,18; 8:1-4; 23:1-3; Luke 2:21-24; Gal. 4:4). Jesus lived and worked as a Jew under the law as He was circumcised the eighth day, observed the Jewish feast days, told a healed leper to show himself to the priest and offer the gift (animal sacrifice) that Moses commanded, and charged His disciples to observe and do all which those who sat in Moses’ seat bade them (i.e. the scribes and Pharisees who had this authority and were strict adherents for the letter of the law).

While Jesus’ kingdom teaching did take the law deeper to include the motives of the heart (Matt. 5:22,28,32,34), and certain adjustments were made to accommodate the coming kingdom (Matt. 5:44; 13:52), His teaching was one of confirmation (Rom. 15:8). Any new revelations given by Jesus at this time were only added details confirming the prophesied, millennial phase of the kingdom of God as outlined in the Old Testament. Finally, let us acknowledge that the Apostle Paul is the theologian for the present dispensation of the grace of God. In his writings alone do we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the Church, the Body of Christ. Our Lord Jesus Christ conducted a heavenly ministry through Paul, his mouthpiece (I Cor. 14:37; II Cor. 13:3; Gal. 1:11,12; 2:2,9; Eph. 3:1-9). We are the recipients of that ministry today through his epistles. May we never lose sight of where we stand in the program of God. This is crucial for our study of forgiveness as we have shown.

Being properly adjusted to grace teaching is absolutely essential for a joyous and victorious life of faith. How can we love and praise God for something we are not sure He has given us? Likewise, how can we have joy and peace when we fear God may withdraw His gifts? Let us not let unscriptural or undispensational teaching separate us from the enjoyment of sins forgiven and fellowship with the One “in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith [faithfulness] of Him” (Eph. 3:12).
 

NoOne

Gone but not forgotten.
FORGIVENESS IN OUR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS

Here we must falter if our feet are not firmly planted in grace. We are instructed to deal with others in the same way God has dealt with us. Since God has forgiven us all trespasses (past, present, and future), is it reasonable to withhold forgiveness from those who trespass against us? “But I was hurt so deeply,” you say. Have you not wounded the heart of your Heavenly Father by your unforgiving spirit? You can never forgive more than He has forgiven you. God knew beforehand how you would sin against Him, yet He forgave all when you believed the gospel.

For anyone who may be struggling with an unforgiving spirit, I would make these suggestions.

(1) Make sure that you understand and believe the gospel of grace (Rom. 3:19-28). Without the indwelling Holy Spirit and the love He sheds abroad in our hearts, you will not be able to forgive in a way which is acceptable to God (Rom. 5:5).

(2) Recognize that this attitude is emanating from the flesh (the old self) and is sinful (I Thes. 5:15; Rom. 12:17-21).

(3) Do not indulge the flesh but judge it (Rom. 13:8-14).

(4) Consider the depths of sin from which you have been forgiven and what it must have meant to our Lord Jesus to die for us. A certain man always prayed, “Lord, never let me forget what I was before I became a Christian.” As a fallen seed of Adam’s race, your sin against a holy God is infinitely greater than any sin we may commit against each other.

(5) Take account of what your disobedience is doing to your inward soul life. Some people think they are well justified in harboring hard feelings against a person while others support them in their evil speaking. But much more damage is done to the offended party in the form of a darkened soul than could ever be done to the offender.

(6) Forgive the person as an act of the will. This is Christian love in action. Do not wait until you “feel” like forgiving. Forgiveness is first extended, then feeling will eventually follow. Trying to work up warm, tender feelings toward the offender is not necessary to forgiveness and in most cases is artificial.

(7) Pray for the spiritual welfare of the offender. I once heard a preacher say, “It is extremely difficult to remain bitter against someone for whom you consistently pray.” Good advice! God promises a “peace which passes all understanding” as we present all our requests to Him (Phil. 4:6,7). We have the added joy of knowing we are pleasing Him and bringing honor to His name.

(8) Be prepared for the reappearance of a root of bitterness. Many Christians report the return of destructive feelings, especially if the offender remains unrepentant or the offense is repeated. Time and again the old man wishes to raise his ugly head. Repeat the above steps.

(9) Use the situation to allow the Lord to conform you to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:28,29). Shameless sinners are causing pain and suffering to the family of God. What a marvelous opportunity for us to take our Christianity out of the closet and let it shine before men!

So far I have said nothing about changing the offender. If the person is lost, we must pursue prudent means to share the gospel with them. If the person is saved, we must lovingly apply the means which are consistent with Paul’s instructions concerning an erring brother (Gal. 6:1; II Tim. 2:24-26; I Cor. 5; II Cor. 2; Heb. 12:14-15). “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy” (Prov. 28:13). That is a truth which transcends dispensations and is true for all time.

If we are allowing our Lord Jesus to love him through us, we will be interested in changing the behavior.

Having said this, we must realize that some people will not change. But we can if we seek to live for Him who died for us and rose again. Forgiveness is not easy, but it is a wonderful occasion for the Spirit of God to change us into His likeness. Remember, God commands us to forgive and His commandments are also His enablements. Our Lord will never ask us to do something that we are unable to do. If God can raise our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and impart life to your dead soul, cannot He also give you victory in this area? “Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it” (I Thes. 5:24). Amen.

Pastor Ken Lawson
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
If this understanding is truly correct understanding due the way, then 90% of Christianity is down the drain, including some of scripture. ( Which might be what is wanted.)

I'm always amazed how people read scripture about the forgiveness of sin, especially when most times it talks about forgiveness in the past, and at the point when someone became a follower of Christ and that a claim is made that that forgiveness is made automatic from that past event, to present and into the future. If this understanding was a transmission sound, it would be as the grinding of gears when a shard is about to file the workings to a slip. It reminds me of how the JW read scripture without close readings and make foolishness of what was made greatest wisdom. So sad that good people are led in this way with the false claim that God is teaching it.
 
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gordon 2

Senior Member
If I cannot sin because all my sins are forgiven past, present and future than Paul saying that we have a fight with what causes sin which he says is in the spiritual realm, then Paul is a dummy and anyone using Paul as the correct "dispensation" to motivate their ministry is a dummy also. Why do people continue with alchemy as if it was the fundamental of chemistry?

Is it all about me?

Personally I deal not with those who trespass against me because I was once was a trespasser and God having forgiven me I seek to imitate his work similarly. I deal with my accusers in the hope that one day Jesus will witness to them and I tie my shoelaces thigh against my feet and against them, as not to relax my stand in some cases---like now. Changing one's outlook about a trespasser does not remove the trespass and the injury that is can cause not only myself but others. If one intentionally sins again against the Holy Spirit after being forgiven of it once.... hum.
 
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NoOne

Gone but not forgotten.
The Blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from ALL sin. Faith in His Blood. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

The sin against the Holy Spirit was what Israel committed when they rejected Christ and continued on with Judaism. To continue in the Flesh as Israel did and as most are trying to do today.

All sin was paid for at Calvary by Christ for everyone. The believer is to walk by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross as God's new creation and appropriate by faith as God sees us in Christ and to walk worthy of the vocation to which we were called.

Collossians 1:19-23

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.
 

Israel

Senior Member
If I cannot sin because all my sins are forgiven past, present and future than Paul saying that we have a fight with what causes sin which he says is in the spiritual realm, then Paul is a dummy and anyone using Paul as the correct "dispensation" to motivate their ministry is a dummy also. Why do people continue with alchemy as if it was the fundamental of chemistry?

Is it all about me?

Personally I deal not with those who trespass against me because I was once was a trespasser and God having forgiven me I seek to imitate his work similarly. I deal with my accusers in the hope that one day Jesus will witness to them and I tie my shoelaces thigh against my feet and against them, as not to relax my stand in some cases---like now. Changing one's outlook about a trespasser does not remove the trespass and the injury that is can cause not only myself but others. If one intentionally sins again against the Holy Spirit after being forgiven of it once.... hum.


Is it all about me?

In one very real sense, yes. But, I am convinced you already know this.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
The Blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from ALL sin. Faith in His Blood. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

The sin against the Holy Spirit was what Israel committed when they rejected Christ and continued on with Judaism. To continue in the Flesh as Israel did and as most are trying to do today.

All sin was paid for at Calvary by Christ for everyone. The believer is to walk by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross as God's new creation and appropriate by faith as God sees us in Christ and to walk worthy of the vocation to which we were called.

Collossians 1:19-23

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

You do not understand that sin is to move away from the hope of the gospel and to discontinue in the faith.

When you sin and for it have no shame nor see no need of reparation saying it was in the past, it is no more, I have been to God in prayer with it and He has forgiven me and yet others still suffer for your sin and when you condone another's sin and though the sinner continues in his sin it is good for your gain--- are you servant of righteousness or unrighteousness and if unrighteousness can you claim a faith grounded and settled. As to sin am I exceptional because I'm to the faith forgiven by God and yet an offense to those I have sinned against.

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’…

Your sin does not cause hunger or stangers or the naked or the sick, or prisoners.

These are not questions.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
 

Israel

Senior Member
You do not understand that sin is to move away from the hope of the gospel and to discontinue in the faith.

When you sin and for it have no shame nor see no need of reparation saying it was in the past, it is no more, I have been to God in prayer with it and He has forgiven me and yet others still suffer for your sin and when you condone another's sin and though the sinner continues in his sin it is good for your gain--- are you servant of righteousness or unrighteousness and if unrighteousness can you claim a faith grounded and settled. As to sin am I exceptional because I'm to the faith forgiven by God and yet an offense to those I have sinned against.

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’…

Your sin does not cause hunger or stangers or the naked or the sick, or prisoners.

These are not questions.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

It's perfectly practical...in practice.
 

NoOne

Gone but not forgotten.
You do not understand that sin is to move away from the hope of the gospel and to discontinue in the faith.

When you sin and for it have no shame nor see no need of reparation saying it was in the past, it is no more, I have been to God in prayer with it and He has forgiven me and yet others still suffer for your sin and when you condone another's sin and though the sinner continues in his sin it is good for your gain--- are you servant of righteousness or unrighteousness and if unrighteousness can you claim a faith grounded and settled. As to sin am I exceptional because I'm to the faith forgiven by God and yet an offense to those I have sinned against.

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’…

Your sin does not cause hunger or stangers or the naked or the sick, or prisoners.

These are not questions.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

You do not understand that sin was dealt with completely at Calvary as revealed by the resurrected Lord to the Apostle Paul to reveal to us Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy. It's Known as the mystery that was revealed to the Apostle Paul to reveal to us gentiles and Ephesians chapter 3 explains it so well. Read Romans 11 carefully as to the setting aside of Israel to bring in the current dispensation of grace and to provoke them to jealousy. The scripture you have quoted has to do with the nations that helped or did not help Israel through the Tribulation period and at the end of that 7 year tribulation period the Lord will judge those nations; Matthew 25:32. The book of Matthew is written to Jews only and concerns the gospel of the Kingdom concerning the throne of David here on earth and has to do with the covenants and promises made to Israel and Christ as there King ruling from Jerusalem during his 1000 year reign upon this earth. Romans 15:8

Matthew 10:5-6:These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

The mystery that was revealed to Paul was hidden unto revealed by the resurrected Lord and has nothing to do with an earthly kingdom but a heavenly position with Christ in the heavens. The 12 disciples were promised 12 thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel; Matthew 19:28( an earthly kingdom here on earth). The one body of Christ which is the mystery revealed by the resurrected Christ to the Apostle Paul is Heavenly and the one body will judge angels; 1st Corinthians 6:3

Distinguishing between the earthly Kingdom Gospel (prophesy) and the gospel of the Grace of God (mystery) is how scripture is to be interpreted.

2 Timothy 2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
You do not understand that sin was dealt with completely at Calvary as revealed by the resurrected Lord to the Apostle Paul to reveal to us Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy. It's Known as the mystery that was revealed to the Apostle Paul to reveal to us gentiles and Ephesians chapter 3 explains it so well. Read Romans 11 carefully as to the setting aside of Israel to bring in the current dispensation of grace and to provoke them to jealousy. The scripture you have quoted has to do with the nations that helped or did not help Israel through the Tribulation period and at the end of that 7 year tribulation period the Lord will judge those nations; Matthew 25:32. The book of Matthew is written to Jews only and concerns the gospel of the Kingdom concerning the throne of David here on earth and has to do with the covenants and promises made to Israel and Christ as there King ruling from Jerusalem during his 1000 year reign upon this earth. Romans 15:8

Matthew 10:5-6:These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

The mystery that was revealed to Paul was hidden unto revealed by the resurrected Lord and has nothing to do with an earthly kingdom but a heavenly position with Christ in the heavens. The 12 disciples were promised 12 thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel; Matthew 19:28( an earthly kingdom here on earth). The one body of Christ which is the mystery revealed by the resurrected Christ to the Apostle Paul is Heavenly and the one body will judge angels; 1st Corinthians 6:3

Distinguishing between the earthly Kingdom Gospel (prophesy) and the gospel of the Grace of God (mystery) is how scripture is to be interpreted.

2 Timothy 2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Well, well. I will pray for you. And please pray for me. Our faiths are totally separated. You have every right to claim I am under the law. As I have that you are NOT a Christian-- that you know not what you do. One of us has a confused gospel or we both are confused. I wish no ill to you and my hope for you is peace.


You seem to think that the sin that Jesus died for at Calvary and has forgiven so you can entertain eternal life is both original sin and the habitual and current sin Christians commit to. I disagree in the manner you understand this.

You claim that Matthew is for Jews, of a dispensation not for Christians or gentiles. I disagree.

You claim that the Kingdom is something other than I know intimately. And so I must disagree.

I now know why so many "bible" believers would consider Catholics to be of a faith false. And I will say that the society your beliefs have created...tell me your's ( your faith) is false.

My hope is that someday we will meet at the Gate and there the door sentries will be Paul and Peter, Matthew et al.

God bless bros.

If ever I come to your way... I will tell you. If you don't hear from me on it... we are still on different roads.
 

SemperFiDawg

Senior Member
There's one gospel, one propitiation-one time, for ALL sin. It's that simple. All this deconstruction of Salvation is just sowing confusion. God made a way so easy a child can grasp it, because a child understands the basis of it: unconditional love. Yet, we don't. We instead elaborate on the imagined details to puff up our egos, prove our point, and make us appear learned, and then, AND THEN, have the audacity to bemoan the state of the Church. Imagine that!!! There's not a hill of beans difference between the understanding of those who crucified Christ and those who engage in these spectacles. I'm convinced the Church would crucify him again today if he didn't meet their interpretation of scripture. They didn't grasp the basic concept of how mighty God's love is for mankind then and we don't grasp it now, not even in the Church, especially not the Church.
 
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NoOne

Gone but not forgotten.
There is one gospel and it is the preaching of the cross in the dispensation of the Grace of God that was committed unto Paul. The Apostle Paul faced fierce opposition to it just as it is today. The whole book of Galations deals with Judaizers coming into the Gentile assemblies and corrupting the message of Grace that was given to the Apostle Paul to give to us. Paul pronounced a curse on any who would come in preaching another Gospel: Galations 1:8-9. Paul even had to rebuke Peter in front of the Gentile assemblies when certain men came from James the Lords brother with there Judaizer ways: Galations 2:11-12. The gospel of the Kingdom and the gospel of the grace of God committed to Paul are different
 

Israel

Senior Member
Rough at times. Not bad rough, just rough, like a logging road headed to a very remote but excellent lake. Yet the promise always eclipses the experience of mind's question... "but will the wheels fall off?"

It's miraculous alright, the power in the promise that appears less than seen, as greater than the very apparent developing wobble. And that power is only attributable...not to the promise's enticement of being "too wonderful"...but because He who makes it is Himself...too wonderful.


And so, with no less power exercised toward us are both the promise and the Promiser made in our sight, one.

Oh, yeah. Feeling that wobble.

"Do you mean that the "red words" somehow (no one would ever outright say..."disregard", or...would they?) have less...what?...weight (?) substance(?) meaning(?) significance now(?) than some others?" Less...a help?

Huh?

God forbid.

But the black words only have any authority of truth because of He who speaks the red words! If the black words are not seen in the light of the red words...

Whose vehicle is shaky as we talk like bobble heads from them to one another...yours, mine, or both?

Then we got the whole issue of "red words" showing up again! In the last book at the end of all the black words!

Wait...wait! Then we got the other matter! How does this work? Cause in the last book the red word speaker is spoken of as the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world!"
Yikes, what this does to my timeline triptych, to my pie charts, to my systematology!

Talking like everything I know about orderliness and logical progression (which time has seemed to show me as I move through it) ain't at all the way it seems...stuff got done...(even all done?) before I even became aware...I could be...aware? Don't tell me! Don't even think of telling me...I'm late to the party!

Does this "leave me out?"

Or does it mean the precise opposite? Always having been included...un-dependent of even my own awareness?

Gee, I thought I was "getting smarter". It felt that way...moving through...time.
 
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StriperAddict

Senior Member
Ha! Great open struggle, I share in it at often times when my bouncy soiled bobble head beliefs get that heavenly chuckle, "Don't you get It?" They wait until truth pulls us from our sad delirium into the transformation of imbedded love...
"Hey, Pappa forgot THAT one, too!!"

Forgiveness, a done deal or not, gets kicked in our cranium until We humbly bow to the false promise We make, oh God, I'll get "it" right next time! Ugh!

Yes, we may well wrestle in our emotions over this (incredible, all consuming gift) when we put our hands to the slippery shaming religious plough. We certainly have many a voice around, shaming us into that corner, over and over we go, Try - Fail - Rededicate. As if our union was predicated on our trying. Ahhh, grace knows better, deep breath!

When in the throws of the accusers fire, try math:
Sin has one single wage ... death.
Jesus died, yep a real death.
The wage?
Paid in full.

Seriously, what part of this celebration aren't believers getting?

Thanks for sharing. I hope others get the righteous chuckle!
 
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NoOne

Gone but not forgotten.
Rough at times. Not bad rough, just rough, like a logging road headed to a very remote but excellent lake. Yet the promise always eclipses the experience of mind's question... "but will the wheels fall off?"

It's miraculous alright, the power in the promise that appears less than seen, as greater than the very apparent developing wobble. And that power is only attributable...not to the promise's enticement of being "too wonderful"...but because He who makes it is Himself...too wonderful.


And so, with no less power exercised toward us are both the promise and the Promiser made in our sight, one.

Oh, yeah. Feeling that wobble.

"Do you mean that the "red words" somehow (no one would ever outright say..."disregard", or...would they?) have less...what?...weight (?) substance(?) meaning(?) significance now(?) than some others?" Less...a help?

Huh?

God forbid.

But the black words only have any authority of truth because of He who speaks the red words! If the black words are not seen in the light of the red words...

Whose vehicle is shaky as we talk like bobble heads from them to one another...yours, mine, or both?

Then we got the whole issue of "red words" showing up again! In the last book at the end of all the black words!

Wait...wait! Then we got the other matter! How does this work? Cause in the last book the red word speaker is spoken of as the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world!"
Yikes, what this does to my timeline triptych, to my pie charts, to my systematology!

Talking like everything I know about orderliness and logical progression (which time has seemed to show me as I move through it) ain't at all the way it seems...stuff got done...(even all done?) before I even became aware...I could be...aware? Don't tell me! Don't even think of telling me...I'm late to the party!

Does this "leave me out?"

Or does it mean the precise opposite? Always having been included...un-dependent of even my own awareness?

Gee, I thought I was "getting smarter". It felt that way...moving through...time.
Man added the red to the words, It's all the Word of God red or black.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

“The Word of truth” must be “rightly divided”; for while it is all given for our spiritual profit, it was not all addressed to us, or written about us.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Ha! Great open struggle, I share in it at often times when my bouncy soiled bobble head beliefs get that heavenly chuckle, "Don't you get It?" They wait until truth pulls us from our sad delirium into the transformation of imbedded love...
"Hey, Pappa forgot THAT one, too!!"

Forgiveness, a done deal or not, gets kicked in our cranium until We humbly bow to the false promise We make, oh God, I'll get "it" right next time! Ugh!

Yes, we may well wrestle in our emotions over this (incredible, all consuming gift) when we put our hands to the slippery shaming religious plough. We certainly have many a voice around, shaming us into that corner, over and over we go, Try - Fail - Rededicate. As if our union was predicated on our trying. Ahhh, grace knows better, deep breath!

When in the throws of the accusers fire, try math:
Sin has one single wage ... death.
Jesus died, yep a real death.
The wage?
Paid in full.

Seriously, what part of this celebration aren't believers getting?

Thanks for sharing. I hope others get the righteous chuckle!
Man added the red to the words, It's all the Word of God red or black.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

“The Word of truth” must be “rightly divided”; for while it is all given for our spiritual profit, it was not all addressed to us, or written about us.

Thank you.

Yes, I realize, though being a fool in raising the matter of "red words", that it might beg the question (and response) of "to what is paid right attention?" And I am as equally persuaded as in my being a fool, that our brother Walter is not.

He recognized a fool's estate and responded accordingly with a mercy toward such a one, willing to stop and sit with him in the dust...not with first impulse to necessarily help his theology...but remind him he needn't be alone, even in this dust...which actually...is a greater help to his theology.

For this One I am persuaded to watch, the one unashamed to appear in the dust, with another, for another. This is not my work of persuasion, anymore than a tree providing shade for an overheated dog seeking to escape the scorching heat of the sun, takes any credit for the tree. He is just glad to see it, be given strength to move toward it, and find place for himself under it. The tree itself holds promise of relief...and in being seen, lends strength to what otherwise would be fool to move at all were it not there, only adding by activity, even greater heat.

And yes, as surely as I believe in experience I have been moved by mirages by either an overheated mind, or simple science of heat's properties in reaction with all dust...mere survival has dictated any and all lessons of discernment. The imperatives of, and in, life itself to life itself may be found sufficient.

A man has been provided all that is necessary to survive to the moment of his death. Sufficient.

Conext, context, context I have so often heard, and not without its exaltation. And so much so that the phrase my recollection produces moves me to wonder "did I actually hear it? or is it of my own conjuring, a mis-remembered thing..."context is king!" Google has it purpose, for it is not long to find it:

What’s the worst sin you could possibly commit? It’s sobering to realize the importance God places on interpreting His Word properly. God demands that we handle His words with utmost care, and that includes putting every word in its proper context.

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A major principle of accurate Bible interpretation is summed up in the phrase “context is king.”

From here: https://answersingenesis.org/hermeneutics/context-is-king/

Now some may think I despise words like hermeneutics, exegesis, isogesis, etc. or what not for just being mere words...all of which which a Marvel Movie character confirmed as being something already maintained but rarely expressed (as so few can receive it) "all words are made up". This was in response to someone who, after hearing that hero speak something that to him sounded gobbledygook said "that sounds like a made up word".

My own take on this matter was far more cynical in nature when assaying in vanity decades ago to be a novelist...a "word merchant". I simply started my pitch at alchemy of turning words to gold with first words of first chapter with "Man developed language when he discovered how hard it is to lie without it".

Too soon?

And what sort of so called christian would have (or had) any desire...to be a novelist? Or find confirmation in some silly Marvel movie? Or ever look at anything but...a Bible? You'd be closer to truth if thinking me a very very "bad" christian. Or even, if of benefit, not one at all. God knows.

Words. Ours always never less in hope, but never more in expression than ideas, concepts. Derivatives of derivatives. And if believed, these sounds/letters derived to hold concepts (derived), one at best is still left with a derivative. A derivative in hope of expression. "All of a man's ways are right in his own eyes" "Let God be true and every man a liar".

The concepts these words create now, in our own minds, if we are honest (how dare a liar bring up honesty! or even think he can speak for any?) as we mull about them in internal observations, find they also create a disposition (or do they?...are the words...at fault? do they create a disposition...or reveal a disposition?) in our stance of observation. We stand in such observations in ourselves...approving. We (to ourselves) side with the words. God words. They are good words...these with which we side. Therefore...by association...

We are told in words...(are we?) there is...pure Word. But this word, unlike every other, is not in service to concept, it is not derivative of derivative. This word not only is in service to true (not concept of true), but Word true, in, and of itself. By origin.

And no man knows the Son...but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


This Word is no more popular now than ever He has been. The only word of God that is Word of God is made flesh. But I may just as well write

kjfsdhhjFN BFNJBFAHRBLshshsikfloere

for all the sense I make. Or am able to.
To me, a very wise man once wrote from his own trial, his own trying, and being tried...from his hope:

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

In looking for shade, like a dog, I had to accept his tense...unless I cared to discard all else this man sought to put into wordS. There is shade there for his not using "was chief". He stopped in his dust also to sit. Talk to me. Encourage. How that even in all his approval he learned a peculiar thing about a mystery. About desire...and even shame it always sought to exclude. Presumed to its exclusion. And he learned it was only in being willing to bear its appearance to him, on him, in him, though him...he escaped it.

He learned a thing. A thing no less confirmed to me once nebulous and almost far too blasphemous to my own soul to allow an utterance...from a clear forming. Call it mere concept, mere idea, mere derivative, it doesn't matter, at all.

But I heard another man say it, he wasn't preaching, he claimed no role as pastor, evangelist, teacher, apostle or prophet. In fact he was in all "religious matters" untitled.

But he said "when you read a story it is as beneficial, if not more, rather than automatically insert yourself into the identity of the hero (which is most normal and common), read it as though you are the villain" (Not verbatim) But, I might just as well write...

amnjfreistheditrinedjklfakjhfb;F,FUPnlasghpoitweljdhuiopfytkjlkhhhfahlkt.
 
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