To those who dont beleive

[Achilles Return]

Wait...whats that...

You arent one to gamble but you are willing to take a chance of burning for eternity. Sounds like a gambling man to me? hmmm.

Refusal to engage in the 'picking of religions' game is what I'm referring to. No matter what religion you pick, 'someone' is burning in some sort of archaic afterlife. I'm beyond that moronic silliness. A religion that has to use the threat of eternal torture to coerce people into belief bothers me.

 

[Achilles Return]

No your immature attempt to create valid points out of nothing shows how insecure you really are in your belief. Have a nice night.

So because you think my response was 'out of nothing' then it was immature? This is a terrible argument. It's akin to saying 'I think your wrong so your arguments were stupid'. How about you specifically address something I actually said instead of pulling the wool over your eyes and attempting to plea moral superiority.

Then you suggest I'm 'insecure', as if maturity and insecurity have anything to do with the other. To be honest, if this was the case - you really couldn't get much more immature than the following:

You ,and many like you, feel you are more intellectually developed and feel you need no reason to acknowledge that God does exist because you dont want to answer for what you do in this life. Well I have bad news for you, you do have to answer. You have to answer to God, and he is angry. Angry at a world the continually denies Him, and He will judge me and you and every other soul that has and will walk the face of this earth. You are just one of many that will learn the hard way and will sorely wish you had heeded the gospel that I know you have read several times on this forum.

By your own (wrong) logic, who is the insecure one here? Let me point out before you respond which board you're on - You will never see me on the christian board - I'm not the one fishing for fights.

 

[Six million dollar ham]

Since you have been witnessed to and have chosen not to believe we are not brothers in faith, therefore you bore me with vain ramblings in ill fated attempts to convert people to your belief system so you wont be the only one cooking like an egg in a frying pan.

Wow.

And whether you want to or not you know it is real because without God you couldnt be "atheist".

Holy crap you've just destroyed atheism with a single sentence!!!

Just kidding, your claim actually reads like something an 8th grader would spout.

 

[Six million dollar ham]

You "atheists" claim to be so moral and so smart. Why waste your time in trying to be so moral and trying to disprove that God doesnt exist? I mean if you only go around once why are you arguing with someone you feel is inferior to you. Who is the stupid one here? If you need a hint find a mirror.

You seem angry.

 

[ambush80]

I sure am. You people use the same snide remarks and tone in your words whenever you confront a Christian on here. You would be so bold face to face. All you guys ever do is use 10 dollar words to try and argue your moot point of view and you wind up with the same old non existent argument.

I ask again why are you trying to be so smart and always trying to disprove that God exists.

One thing you cant disprove is the fact that over 40 different people, most of whom never knew or saw each other, wrote texts describing the same incidents given by one divine God and before the book of Matthew, several prophesied the coming of the messiah, and of those, NONE knew the other or had read the others texts. No coincidence there. He is real, you know he is real and you are denying it and are going to answer for it and if you dont accept Jesus as the son of the living God you will be cast into he!! upon judgement.

 

[Six million dollar ham]

I sure am. You people use the same snide remarks and tone in your words whenever you confront a Christian on here. You would be so bold face to face. All you guys ever do is use 10 dollar words to try and argue your moot point of view and you wind up with the same old non existent argument.

You're right, I would be so bold face to face. What you see is what you get. So the 10 dollar words frustrate you. My apologies.

What measures have you taken to not be frustrated in life by $10 words?

I ask again why are you trying to be so smart and always trying to disprove that God exists.

Why do I try to be smart? Aside from blonde actresses and models, who ever got anywhere in life by trying to be dumb?

He is real, you know he is real and you are denying it and are going to answer for it and if you dont accept Jesus as the son of the living God you will be cast into he!! upon judgement.

And this is the part that you find satisfying, isn't it?

 

[vowell462]

My "inability" is due to a lack of interest of anything you have to say. Since you have been witnessed to and have chosen not to believe we are not brothers in faith, therefore you bore me with vain ramblings in ill fated attempts to convert people to your belief system so you wont be the only one cooking like an egg in a frying pan. Furthermore being that we are not brothers in faith I am obliged and confirmed in scripture that I am to wash my hands of you and do not have read or listen to anything you say because you are basically given up to a reprobate mind and are worthy of the second death. And whether you want to or not you know it is real because without God you couldnt be "atheist".

Are you serious? Where is the intelligent conversation here? Atheist, Agnostic, or whatever, this statement alone is reason enough to turn anyone away from christianity. Dude, your sounding rather cultish. Are you the guy that stands outside of the Braves game and yells at people about how they are ruining their lives for drinking beer and having a good time?

 

[Achilles Return]

My "inability" is due to a lack of interest of anything you have to say. Since you have been witnessed to and have chosen not to believe we are not brothers in faith, therefore you bore me with vain ramblings in ill fated attempts to convert people to your belief system so you wont be the only one cooking like an egg in a frying pan. Furthermore being that we are not brothers in faith I am obliged and confirmed in scripture that I am to wash my hands of you and do not have read or listen to anything you say because you are basically given up to a reprobate mind and are worthy of the second death. And whether you want to or not you know it is real because without God you couldnt be "atheist".

You are nuts, dude. Seek help.

 

[Achilles Return]

I thought you had washed your hands of us? Is it the mark of the 'mature' man to keep coming back for more? How about you stop playing games and answer the quite valid points I made - that is, if you even are capable of doing so.

Or are you simply going to continue sticking your fingers in your ears and yell how 'empty our responses are', or how 'old our rhetoric is'? I must say, you are a terrible apologeticist. Can you do anything other than say 'I'm right and you're wrong and you're going to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----' - or are these matters simply out of your hand and mind? I'd recommend leaving the debating to those who are capable of putting together rational arguments.

 

[Achilles Return]

I'd recommend you start reading here, before you decide to respond again.

 

[vowell462]

I sure am. You people use the same snide remarks and tone in your words whenever you confront a Christian on here. You wouldnt be so bold face to face. All you guys ever do is use 10 dollar words to try and argue your moot point of view and you wind up with the same old non existent argument.

I ask again why are you trying to be so smart and always trying to disprove that God exists.

One thing you cant disprove is the fact that over 40 different people, most of whom never knew or saw each other, wrote texts describing the same incidents given by one divine God and before the book of Matthew, several prophesied the coming of the messiah, and of those, NONE knew the other or had read the others texts. No coincidence there. He is real, you know he is real and you are denying it and are going to answer for it and if you dont accept Jesus as the son of the living God you will be cast into he!! upon judgement.

Wow. Dude you have issues. How can you be so mad at someone for not believing the same things you do? I dont think many on here go around trying to " disprove" god, they just rebutt people like you that come on here and try to argue and convert. You are the one spreading the word, not the atheist. Are you really trying to be an apologetic? Listen to the tone in your post and maybe youll understand why nobody will take you seriously. As for being bold face to face? You are assuming again. Maybe you should re-cap before someone does meet you face to face.

 

[atlashunter]

This place of eternal torture was not created for any of God's creations. It was made specifically for the devil and his angels. However, if you do not live for God but you live for the devil you will end up in this place.

Lucifer and the other angels are also God's creations are they not? And the lake of fire and all of its future inhabitants was known about before anything or anyone was created right? Your claims are not compatible with a God that is all knowing and all powerful.

As for the moral claims made of Christianity I find it positively immoral and evil. Here is why.

Consider a Nazi soldier in WWII working at a concentration camp. Day after day he helps unload jewish families from railroad cars, herds them into a gas chamber to have Zyklon B dropped on them, maybe he shoots a few here and there for fun, and this goes on daily for months or years. Eventually Germany loses the war and the soldier is caught, tried and convicted as a war criminal. Sentenced to hang the soldier sits in his cell and reflects on what he has done. He says the sinners prayer, repents of his sins, and accepts Jesus as his savior.

YOU as a christian must believe that the mass murderer goes to heaven for eternity while all of those non-believers he killed will burn forever. Why? Because they didn't believe Jesus was the messiah. Believe that if you must but don't call it moral.

 

[StriperAddict]

Atlas, I'll try and give your thoughts a shot.
If I chose NOT to forgive someone who has wronged me, even from the worst offense, then it becomes my problem, not theirs. My heart will be consumed with bitterness and hatred. While forgiveness seems a silly thing in light of murder, etc., it will set the heart of the one who forgives free from the power of that hatred.

Here is just such a story:
Pastor Turrell Humes Forgives His Daughter's Killer

If I, in my human weakness and little faith so often, can come to grips with an offender and forgive him, how much more so the Lord Himself?

Atlas, don't get me wrong, I get the whole "axe murder, nazi criminal, rapist" thing. I'd like this group to get what it's got coming... but I say that in my humanity, which isn't right/wrong, it's just not God's perspective. You're looking at it in terms of degrees, God sees sin for what it ALL is and puts it FULLY to death on a cross. He has to. How can there be a "partial remedy" for it?

If He didn't do it for the murderer, then he didn't do it for you and I, and all hope for humanity is lost.

 

[atlashunter]

SA,

If you want to chalk the heavenly reward for the murderer up to mercy and forgiveness that's fine. But lets not call it moral or just, especially in light of the claim that the non-believing victims will burn forever. I've also never seen a link between killing an innocent man to pay for the wrongs of someone else. Really think that is moral? Wouldn't it be more moral and more just to just forgive out of the goodness of your heart? Imagine that Pastor Turrell killed someone elses daughter as a means to forgive his daughters killer. That is the morality of vicarious redemption.

 

[stringmusic]

SA,

If you want to chalk the heavenly reward for the murderer up to mercy and forgiveness that's fine. But lets not call it moral or just, especially in light of the claim that the non-believing victims will burn forever. I've also never seen a link between killing an innocent man to pay for the wrongs of someone else. Really think that is moral?

So maybe you would hear and believe?
....also I dont believe Jesus was a "man"

Imagine that Pastor Turrell killed someone elses daughter as a means to forgive his daughters killer. That is the morality of vicarious redemption.

It wouldnt have been a perfect sacrifice.

 

[atlashunter]

It wouldnt have been a perfect sacrifice.

What was it about Jesus that made him the perfect sacrifice?

 

[stringmusic]

What was it about Jesus that made him the perfect sacrifice?

He was without sin. Holy.

 

[atlashunter]

He was without sin. Holy.

You do realize you are making my point? The more innocent and without blame the sacrifice the more suitable to have them pay the price for someone else's wrongdoing. In other words if the good pastor were to kill someone else's kid to pay for the crime of someone having killed his daughter, better to find a virgin, straight A student, etc. The more pure and flawless the better. This is justice? This is moral in your view?

 

[StriperAddict]

You do realize you are making my point? The more innocent and without blame the sacrifice the more suitable to have them pay the price for someone else's wrongdoing. In other words if the good pastor were to kill someone else's kid to pay for the crime of someone having killed his daughter, better to find a virgin, straight A student, etc. The more pure and flawless the better. This is justice? This is moral in your view?

The difference between a straight A student and Christ is that one of them rose from the dead. God was not about to choose a mortal man to suffer for the "murderer". His only Son went to the cross willingly for love's sake. Sending someone else to die who does not have power over death would be futile. (Which is why the faith of Budda, Islam, Confucious, etc., are of no account, because their leaders and prophets are still dead in the ground.)

The death and ressurection of Christ was life apart from serving God with "dead works", and was for you and I, and all who would call on Him.

A final point on the talk about "why does God send "good" people to an eternity without Him"? Think of it this way, if one goes thru his whole life pushing God out of his life, no matter how "good" on "any earthly standard", doesn't that person freely make his choice of where he/she really wants to be?
And if heaven's entrance is by good works, God is then a respecter of person's and the free gift of grace is no longer free, because God now "grades on a curve". That simply would not be fair, from the least of His creation to the "greatest". Consider it this way, if I came up to a large mansion, knocked on the door and told the owner that I wanted to live there, he has every right to deny me entrance because of one thing... he doesn't know me. The ones he knows well (family) get to be part of his life and part of what he owns, and share in its joys forever.


The ownership principle is the same in the kingdom.
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

In a gesture of the purest love Christ comes to our house, "knocks" on our heart's door, and we either answer the door (invitation) or not.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

We are not forced to take the free gift and call Him Lord, if we choose not to.

 

[atlashunter]

The difference between a straight A student and Christ is that one of them rose from the dead.

Not sure how you think this helps you address the point I was making. The justice of punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty is somehow altered if they recover from the punishment? How does that work? Walk me through the logic on that one.

A final point on the talk about "why does God send "good" people to an eternity without Him"? Think of it this way, if one goes thru his whole life pushing God out of his life, no matter how "good" on "any earthly standard", doesn't that person freely make his choice of where he/she really wants to be?

You're assuming that people are given knowledge of what is behind door number 3. The reality is they aren't. Not only that but there are thousands of doors to choose from and you get one shot. Maybe something great is behind one of those doors, maybe not. One thing that is true though even under your own theology is that the maker of the game who wants you to choose the right door could eliminate all the other possibilities so that you had an honest choice but for whatever reason refuses to do so. Sound like an honest game to you? You may very well go to the grave and find yourself facing the wrath of someone else's god for having made the wrong choice. Does that mean you chose to experience their punishment? Or does it mean you did the best you could with the scant tools and information available to you? Is it really justice to take someone in that situation who did the best they could and torture them forever for having made the wrong choice? Do you really believe such a monstrous thing?

And if heaven's entrance is by good works, God is then a respecter of person's and the free gift of grace is no longer free, because God now "grades on a curve". That simply would not be fair, from the least of His creation to the "greatest". Consider it this way, if I came up to a large mansion, knocked on the door and told the owner that I wanted to live there, he has every right to deny me entrance because of one thing... he doesn't know me. The ones he knows well (family) get to be part of his life and part of what he owns, and share in its joys forever.

Don't know about you SA but I see a pretty large gap between a man declining you entrance to his mansion and casting millions of murdered jews into a lake of fire and brimstone to burn forever.

We are not forced to take the free gift and call Him Lord, if we choose not to.

And a woman with a knife to her throat isn't forced to give in to a rapist. Until your religion goes back and rewrites the books to not include the threat of he11 the proposal cannot be portrayed as one free of coercion.