Jesus as a Sacrifice??

[bullethead]

="Madman, post: 11653776, member: 36479"]Church in the east uses leavened bread for mass, church in the west uses unleavened bread, mainly because leavened bread molded in the humidity. Some disputes over the kalendar. Was the Pope the chief among equals. Nothing theological. The Coptic church got ticked that everyone was not listening to their man Cyril so the left. That has been agreed upon as a language barrier problem.



We know plenty. Justin the Martyr wrote on the first century. Plenty of writings from the church fathers, the councils, the didaca. Lots of writings out there.

The councils started in the 300's in Rome. Peter was never in Rome.

There is a difference Peter's vs Paul's christianity.

Peter was married, priests on up not married.

The Trinity?
Worshiping Mary?
Papal Hierarchy ?
When did these start?

="Madman, post: 11653776, member: 36479"] creation will not get someone to a redeemer but I believe it can get them to a first cause. That is the route many of us took.

Again, the decision of what an individual chooses to use as their explanation is evidence of nothing specific.

="Madman, post: 11653776, member: 36479"] I dont know. I believe they spend more time praying, mediating, studying, etc. At least I hope the do. Our priests and bishops have always given sound council to me and my family. I believe God is active in creation but my beliefs are different than many on here. Go figure.

I understand that you hope they do but...
Is praying more, meditating more studying more requirements for a person to have more of an in with your God?
Lots of people give sound council on matters, does that mean they have a closer connection to a god?
Explain how your preist and his boss above him, and his boss above him and his boss above him are closer to god than you or even I am.
Why the hierarchy
What makes one closer to god than the next and closer than any other human that is not clergy?

 

[Israel]

The councils started in the 300's in Rome. Peter was never in Rome.

There is a difference Peter's vs Paul's christianity.

Peter was married, priests on up not married.

The Trinity?
Worshiping Mary?
Papal Hierarchy ?
When did these start?



Again, the decision of what an individual chooses to use as their explanation is evidence of nothing specific.





I understand that you hope they do but...
Is praying more, meditating more studying more requirements for a person to have more of an in with your God?
Lots of people give sound council on matters, does that mean they have a closer connection to a god?
Explain how your preist and his boss above him, and his boss above him and his boss above him are closer to god than you or even I am.
Why the hierarchy
What makes one closer to god than the next and closer than any other human that is not clergy?

There is a difference Peter's vs Paul's christianity.

In what way?

 

[bullethead]

In what way?

LOTS of questions that you did not give detailed answers to and examples gone unaddressed before we get into another rabbit hole.

 

[Madman]

The councils started in the 300's in Rome. Peter was never in Rome.

There is a difference Peter's vs Paul's christianity.

Peter was married, priests on up not married.

The Trinity?
Worshiping Mary?
Papal Hierarchy ?
When did these start?

The councils did not start in Rome, the first was in Jerusalem. There is no difference in Peter and Paul's Christianity, the both preached Christ and him crucified.

My bishop is married, the church in Rome decided it would be better if a priest and bishop was not married, as the church was their bride. Orthodox priests marry. Paul said it was better not to marry so as to dedicate time to the ministry.
The is no adoration of Mary.

The church has always believed in a triune God, there just needed to be language agreed upon to describe him. See the discussion on Homoousion at one of the councils.

There has always been a hierarchy, see Acts 15.

The problem may be that there is so much that you know that is incorrect.

 

[Madman]

I understand that you hope they do but...
Is praying more, meditating more studying more requirements for a person to have more of an in with your God?
Lots of people give sound council on matters, does that mean they have a closer connection to a god?
Explain how your preist and his boss above him, and his boss above him and his boss above him are closer to god than you or even I am.
Why the hierarchy
What makes one closer to god than the next and closer than any other human that is not clergy?

I didn't say I hope they do, I said I believe they do. I see it in their interaction with me, my family and the world.

I don't understand the language you are using about being "closer to God". What does that mean? How is it to be applied by anyone? I don't know anyone who seeks "Closeness" to God.

I seek deification not closeness. The Christian is called to be like Christ not to be closer to Christ.

As for council, I have never heard any secular person or group give spiritual council, I do not pursue secular council, it does not benefit me in any way.

 

[bullethead]

I didn't say I hope they do, I said I believe they do. I see it in their interaction with me, my family and the world.

I don't understand the language you are using about being "closer to God". What does that mean? How is it to be applied by anyone? I don't know anyone who seeks "Closeness" to God.

I seek deification not closeness. The Christian is called to be like Christ not to be closer to Christ.

As for council, I have never heard any secular person or group give spiritual council, I do not pursue secular council, it does not benefit me in any way.

"Madman, post: 11653776, member: 36479"] I dont know. I believe they spend more time praying, mediating, studying, etc.*** At least I hope the do.*** Our priests and bishops have always given sound council to me and my family. I believe God is active in creation but my beliefs are different than many on here. Go figure."

Clearly after you saying believe you said "at least I hope the(minus the Y, no biggie, just making the quote accurate) do" Added asterisks are mine.

Closer to God.
Is clergy able to communicate with God, hear God, better than anyone who is not clergy? Is god more involved in their lives, more of an influence in their lives, does god inspire them to do things more than god would non clergy?
Is clergy more able to understand god and know what god wants and thinks better than non clergy?
That is what I mean.

Again, why is clergy able to give spiritual council better than non clergy? What qualifies them to do so? What "extra" do they possess that non clergy does not?

 

[Madman]

Closer to God.
Is clergy able to communicate with God, hear God, better than anyone who is not clergy? Is god more involved in their lives, more of an influence in their lives, does god inspire them to do things more than god would non clergy?
Is clergy more able to understand god and know what god wants and thinks better than non clergy?
That is what I mean.

Certainly, they spend more time in the very act. Are you closer to and able to communicate, understand, etc. your wife better than I am?

James 5;16 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

Again, why is clergy able to give spiritual council better than non clergy? What qualifies them to do so? What "extra" do they possess that non clergy does not?

The priest/bishop is intimately connected with the sacramental character.

 

[bullethead]

Certainly, they spend more time in the very act. Are you closer to and able to communicate, understand, etc. your wife better than I am?

James 5;16 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.


The priest/bishop is intimately connected with the sacramental character.

Yes I am able mostly because My wife exists.
If clergy is in fact able to actually communicate with God easier than you or I, doesn't God tell let them know their wrongdoings?

Intimately connected...how so?

 

[Madman]

My wife exists.

prove it

If clergy is in fact able to actually communicate with God easier than you or I, doesn't God tell let them know their wrongdoings?

That has nothing to do with "ease" we are all able to communicate with God. God assuredly communicates wrong doings, he is the arbiter of right and wrong.

Intimately connected...how so?

They are priests, I am not. A Priest has been given sacramental power by the laying on of hands that originated with Christ.

 

[bullethead]

prove it

I have a priests signature on a piece of paper that says he married us.
It can be backed up at the courthouse with the license.
I won't post either here because there is just some information that I'd rather not share on here. But since you are a big fan of priests and possibly wouldn't question their authority you should be fine with the information I have.
If it came down to a court of law I could easily prove whatever was needed to suffice.

This god thing...not so much

That has nothing to do with "ease" we are all able to communicate with God. God assuredly communicates wrong doings, he is the arbiter of right and wrong.

As wrong doings are happening or before they happen? Or is the excuse that God will punish them after they are dead?

They are priests, I am not. A Priest has been given sacramental power by the laying on of hands that originated with Christ.

That an a buck will get ya any sized soft drink at Micky Ds

 

[Madman]

I have a priests signature on a piece of paper that says he married us.
It can be backed up at the courthouse with the license.
I won't post either here because there is just some information that I'd rather not share on here. But since you are a big fan of priests and possibly wouldn't question their authority you should be fine with the information I have.
If it came down to a court of law I could easily prove whatever was needed to suffice.

All of this could be a forgery, or lies by the people who wrote them. You may come before a judge who refuses to accept what you consider to be valid evidence.

What this all comes down to is ones refusal to look at the logical beginning and move from there. Neither of my sons would have been able to comprehend Calculus without first understanding Trig.

It may be best for some to revisit origins, and how things must have began. Perhaps they should read some philosophy, start with Parmendes. (ex nihilo nihil fit)

A person would not be able to move to a savior until they are convinced of the presence of God.

Personally I am convinced of the necessity of a first cause, or a prime mover. Until then.

God's Peace.

 

[bullethead]

All of this could be a forgery, or lies by the people who wrote them. You may come before a judge who refuses to accept what you consider to be valid evidence.

What this all comes down to is ones refusal to look at the logical beginning and move from there. Neither of my sons would have been able to comprehend Calculus without first understanding Trig.

It may be best for some to revisit origins, and how things must have began. Perhaps they should read some philosophy, start with Parmendes. (ex nihilo nihil fit)

A person would not be able to move to a savior until they are convinced of the presence of God.

Personally I am convinced of the necessity of a first cause, or a prime mover. Until then.

God's Peace.

I can prove it in a court of law. If necessary forensics can exonerate any forgery charges. Recorded history both personal, at the courthouse, at the church, eyewitnesses, physical evidence such as invitations, rsvp replies, pictures from a professional photographer, pictures from guests, records from the place the reception was held, newspaper articles in the form of announcements that have been not only cut from papers and saved and the ability to research online archives, and yes even oral traditions from the people who still talk about our wedding and reception 30 years later. And inadvertent proof in the form of a County Firemans parade that was hosted by our town was in progress at the same time and the parade was halted as the wedding party had to cross the street with full documentation as it being featured in several news papers from reporters of different towns who there to cover one event and also recorded another unexpected event of our Wedding.

There is ALL THAT PROOF and I was just a 20 year old younger man getting married in one small town..

On the other hand, the events, activities, miracles, Earth altering happenings etc etc etc etc that are claimed to have happened to the supposed Son of the God of Abraham , as far as history is concerned, went unnoticed. It exists nowhere else but in the religious texts that are full of similar events which went unnoticed outside of those texts. Which just so happens to happen in other cultures religions where, yes again, exist nowhere else outside of their holy texts.

Quite frankly, there is more proof of me than your god or his son.

What is the logical beginning?
Walk me through it since you did not want to participate in my line of questioning that I had with a few priests.

 

[Madman]

What is the logical beginning?
Walk me through it since you did not want to participate in my line of questioning that I had with a few priests.

I have explained the unmoved mover, how do you explain it?

as far as history is concerned, went unnoticed.

There are many writings outside of the Bible that speak of the things you claim "went unnoticed". Do you research and find them I have done mine. If I believed you were in this for any reason other than argument I would put a little more into it. I have answered you questions about the very small differences in the church in the east and the church in the west, nothing theologically different exist between them and you return with questions about "proximity of the priest vs. the laity to God", Not even an acknowledgement of the answer. When you are provided with truthful, sincere answers you blow them off and move to the next internet found remark. As Israel asked, " what are these great differences' that you claim in the church?

 

[bullethead]

I have explained the unmoved mover, how do you explain it?

Energy is just as likely to be the Unmoved Mover. Always is. Always was.



There are many writings outside of the Bible that speak of the things you claim "went unnoticed". Do you research and find them I have done mine. If I believed you were in this for any reason other than argument I would put a little more into it. I have answered you questions about the very small differences in the church in the east and the church in the west, nothing theologically different exist between them and you return with questions about "proximity of the priest vs. the laity to God", Not even an acknowledgement of the answer. When you are provided with truthful, sincere answers you blow them off and move to the next internet found remark. As Israel asked, " what are these great differences' that you claim in the church?[/QUOTE]
If I did not research things I would not waste the bandwtith on this site. If I found what you found as convincing to me we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Who wrote of the graves bursting open and the saints flying out? Who wrote of the day turning into night on that day? Who recorded the Earthquake that supposedly happened on that day? Who among 500 recorded that troublemaker Jesus ascending into the sky?
Why were other cultures recording living history when they were supposed to be under water?
Nothing addresses those with any convincing explanations let alone facts.

Without getting into a 10hr back and forth, this is easiest for me to let you read.
https://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul

 

[Madman]

The councils started in the 300's in Rome. False
Peter was never in Rome. History and tradition states otherwise

There is a difference Peter's vs Paul's christianity. no they are not if you think they are please elaborate

Peter was married, priests on up not married. False

Worshiping Mary? False, no one worships Mary. Read Luke 1:46-55
46 And Mary said,‘My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour,
48 for he has looked with favour on the lowliness of his servant.
Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed
and we do call her blessed.

As I stated so much of what you believe to be true, is not true. No wonder you confuse yourself and others, no one cares to keep up with the constant topic change. You need the facts. When you acknowledge that so much of your belief about Christianity is simply wrong maybe others will be more favorable to dialog.

 

[Madman]

Energy is just as likely to be the Unmoved Mover. Always is. Always was.

No it is not. Energy is an effect, it must have a cause.

 

[Madman]

Without getting into a 10hr back and forth, this is easiest for me to let you read.
https://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul

I rest my case. You need to check and recheck your sources. This guy is There is nothing orthodox about what he teachs. The church, does not now nor has it ever believed the junk this guy is espousing.

If I believed this kind of nonsense I'd probably be in the boat with you.

 

[bullethead]

As I stated so much of what you believe to be true, is not true. No wonder you confuse yourself and others, no one cares to keep up with the constant topic change. You need the facts. When you acknowledge that so much of your belief about Christianity is simply wrong maybe others will be more favorable to dialog.

http://christianbeliefs.org/articles/peter&rome.html

 

[bullethead]

I rest my case. You need to check and recheck your sources. This guy is There is nothing orthodox about what he teachs. The church, does not now nor has it ever believed the junk this guy is espousing.

If I believed this kind of nonsense I'd probably be in the boat with you.

Incident at Antioch

And yeah
I've been seeing some junk espousing alright

 

[bullethead]

I rest my case. You need to check and recheck your sources. This guy is There is nothing orthodox about what he teachs. The church, does not now nor has it ever believed the junk this guy is espousing.

If I believed this kind of nonsense I'd probably be in the boat with you.

I will look forward to seeing you join his forum and set him straight with your facts.