Bart Ehrman article

[gemcgrew]

Deciding rightly, or wrongly is a separate topic.

Not as it relates to freedom.

The choice to make that decision still belongs to man to make.

"The way of man is not in himself" Jeremiah 10:23

Ehrman chose his path, be it right or wrong.

Ehrman was not first consulted when the choices were established.

 

[gemcgrew]

Too much assumption and assertion takes place through individual interpretation in order to have Billions of people make individual conclusions which all differ. Each telling the other how and why one is wrong while thinking themself as understanding it all perfectly right...and those discrepancies are just among the believers.

This is called "progress" within the scientific community.

 

[bullethead]

Authority is.

No doubt.
Beyond humans, nothing has been established as to what, who or if any exists.

 

[bullethead]

This is called "progress" within the scientific community.

Way more in depth than just that is required scientifically. There is a process and standards which must be met.

 

[hummerpoo]

Way more in depth than just that is required scientifically. There is a process and standards which must be met.

And when that depth is explored the foundation is axiom and the accepted end is consensus. At least that is what I have found.

 

[Spotlite]

"The way of man is not in himself" Jeremiah 10:23

That’s taught and commonly accepted that it’s not within a man to direct his path - trust in God to direct you.

There’s a way that seems right to man, when he’s directing his own path without God....the end is destructive.

Doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the choice he makes to follow God or himself (flesh).

 

[bullethead]

And when that depth is explored the foundation is axiom and the accepted end is consensus. At least that is what I have found.

Yeah, much more complex than that but way better than going with what someone asserts. Plus it is always open to accept new information if and when it becomes available.

Edited to remove a double "what"

 

[gemcgrew]

That’s taught and commonly accepted that it’s not within a man to direct his path - trust in God to direct you.

There’s a way that seems right to man, when he’s directing his own path without God....the end is destructive.

Doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the choice he makes to follow God or himself (flesh).

Or it has everything to do with it, and that is why we trust in God and not our decision making skills.

 

[hummerpoo]

Yeah, much more complex than that but way better than going with what someone asserts. Plus it is always open to accept new information if and when it becomes available.

Edited to remove a double "what"

I can't claim to be familiar enough with the methods of either side of the basic issues to speak with anything resembling certainty on the broader scale, but the more I chew around the edges the more I am impressed with the similarity of the two fields that so many believe stand in complete opposition. For now, it is my opinion that it boils down to "the same old thing".

 

[bullethead]

Or it has everything to do with it, and that is why we trust in God and not our decision making skills.

So many on the planet get by just fine using their own decision making skills.
The "we" you mention is a small group.

 

[bullethead]

I can't claim to be familiar enough with the methods of either side of the basic issues to speak with anything resembling certainty on the broader scale, but the more I chew around the edges the more I am impressed with the similarity of the two fields that so many believe stand in complete opposition. For now, it is my opinion that it boils down to "the same old thing".

On the outside they seem similar. Science requires way more checks and balances.

 

[Spotlite]

So many on the planet get by just fine using their own decision making skills.
The "we" you mention is a small group.

16% of the world’s population are non believers.

31.11% Christianity.

The remaining are a mixture of others believing / trusting in a higher power.

Christianity is the largest group world wide.

 

[bullethead]

16% of the world’s population are non believers.

31.11% Christianity.

The remaining are a mixture of others believing / trusting in a higher power.

Christianity is the largest group world wide.

That is 5 billion non Christians
2 billion Christians are broken up into over 40,000 denominations because they all cannot agree alike.
Go a few floors up in the Christianity forums and "we" have a hard time agreeing on much.
I will absolutely tip my hat to Gem. We do not agree on religion but he is the most hard core tow the line proponent of Predestination that I have seen in these forums. His "we" is a very small group that trusts God over their own decision making skills. Saying it and living it are two very different things.
When everyone else was either tiptoeing around or flat out filibustering and never answering the "Would you kill your child if God told you to" that was asked in another thread, Gem flat out, no hesitation... Yes.
How many in here are that type of "we" on trusting God vs your own decisions? How many of the 2,170,000,000?

 

[Spotlite]

That is 5 billion non Christians
2 billion Christians are broken up into over 40,000 denominations because they all cannot agree alike.
Go a few floors up in the Christianity forums and "we" have a hard time agreeing on much.
I will absolutely tip my hat to Gem. We do not agree on religion but he is the most hard core tow the line proponent of Predestination that I have seen in these forums. His "we" is a very small group that trusts God over their own decision making skills. Saying it and living it are two very different things.
When everyone else was either tiptoeing around or flat out filibustering and never answering the "Would you kill your child if God told you to" that was asked in another thread, Gem flat out, no hesitation... Yes.
How many in here are that type of "we" on trusting God vs your own decisions? How many of the 2,170,000,000?

Every believer trust God. A bunch of us trust that he’s not going to ask us to commit a crime. That was actually an easy question to answer knowing you aren’t going to be asked to do anything illegal. The debate can’t conveniently lump all Christianity together to give us a black eye and then unlump us to give us a black eye.

But my question never asked about trust, it was concerning the freedom to choose to obey. Are you programmed to obey without choice? If so, that isn’t trust, that’s protocol.

 

[gemcgrew]

That was actually an easy question to answer knowing you aren’t going to be asked to do anything illegal.

Being "asked to" was not part of the question. Being "demanded to" was part of the question. The only right thing to do is obedience.

But my question never asked about trust, it was concerning the freedom to choose to obey. Are you programmed to obey without choice? If so, that isn’t trust, that’s protocol.

Or that's providence and the trust is providential.

 

[hummerpoo]

That is 5 billion non Christians
2 billion Christians are broken up into over 40,000 denominations because they all cannot agree alike.
Go a few floors up in the Christianity forums and "we" have a hard time agreeing on much.
I will absolutely tip my hat to Gem. We do not agree on religion but he is the most hard core tow the line proponent of Predestination that I have seen in these forums. His "we" is a very small group that trusts God over their own decision making skills. Saying it and living it are two very different things.
When everyone else was either tiptoeing around or flat out filibustering and never answering the "Would you kill your child if God told you to" that was asked in another thread, Gem flat out, no hesitation... Yes.
How many in here are that type of "we" on trusting God vs your own decisions? How many of the 2,170,000,000?

Bullet, I did a little investigation on that number a while back; and found that it is inflated by counting regional organizations and other such "different in name only" factors as different in doctrine. I don't know what the true number is, or where to find it, but a realistic number is still going to be plenty big and more convincing by its truthfulness.

 

[Spotlite]

Being "asked to" was not part of the question. Being "demanded to" was part of the question. The only right thing to do is obedience.

Or that's providence and the trust is providential.

I’m not going to get a simple yes / no am I ?

 

[gemcgrew]

I’m not going to get a simple yes / no am I ?

What was the yes or no question?

 

[hummerpoo]

Or that's providence and the trust is providential.

Ahh, an opportunity to post this once again:

PROVIDENCE
The unceasing activity of the Creator whereby, in overflowing bounty and goodwill, He upholds His creatures in ordered existence, guides and governs all events, circumstances, and free acts of angels and men, and directs everything to its appointed goal, for His own glory.
J. I. Packer

GEM, please feel free to disagree with Packer if your intended use differs. His use of "free acts" does need some nuance.

 

[gemcgrew]

What was the yes or no question?

If "Are you programmed to obey without choice?" is your yes or no question, I can only answer "No".

I am designed to disobey. Perfect obedience belongs to Christ alone.