1gr8bldr
Senior Member
To clarify the speech. The premise is that the church bases it's faith on the book. That before the book, they had underlying foundation that we should look to as the bases of our faith. The book is just a book.
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Bullet, Ambush and others....
- Thread starter jmharris23
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1gr8bldr
Senior Member
Pondering on this...... The thought of seeing my loved ones again is comforting but equally discomforting is the thought that all my loved one's may not be here. On one hand, I can see a potential resistance to a God whom grants heaven to one and death [no he11] to another, over what he believes or don't believe. I put a lot of stock in Mark, however if my wife is not my wife in heaven then I prefer to stay right here.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
True regarding Babe Ruth until they say he died, arose and flew up into the sky.
The mortal stuff is believable.
ambush80
Senior Member
AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
That's it?!? Peter's argument to Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins is that he saw it with his own eyes? They would believe it, too if they saw it with their own eyes. I would as well. I feel a little dumber. What a rip off.
That's it?!? Peter's argument to Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins is that he saw it with his own eyes? They would believe it, too if they saw it with their own eyes. I would as well. I feel a little dumber. What a rip off.
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ambush80
Senior Member
I might even believe it if someone said he hit a ball 600ft.
ambush80
Senior Member
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
LOL, she might be better than when she was 25. It's heaven, dream bigI want my wife when we were 25. Awwwwww yeahhhhh.
But not forever.
ambush80
Senior Member
Great point.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
I don't know that I believe they saw him fly up into the sky. That assumes heaven is up? Why does it have to be up? My belief is that it don't matter whether he walked on the earth after death. As the firstborn among many brothers, I don't know why his resurrection should be different than mine. And mine would be that my dead body stays in the grave, but that I am raised to afterlife. The bible is a collection of contradictions. So, I don't feel the need to believe all of it. I wish we had nothing more than the story of him going to the grave and his body in the grave. It would not mean that he was not raised. The idea of his body not being there and him then revealing himself in different unrecognized forms makes no sense. If his body went with him then why not reveal himself in that body rather than some story of another form. Christians believe that when they die, they leave their body behind and go to heaven. Why then would Jesus's death be different. Point I mean to make is there is only one real miracle that matters. Was he raised from the dead. And we honestly have not enough information that we can trust in written form. I believe that we a chosen to believe or not. As I have always said, it feels as though I have no choice in the matter, as if I am preprogrammed to believe it so
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
These are my thoughts on a few of the things being discussed.
Regarding the Bible, I think it is an all or nothing deal. If a GOD has ANYTHING to do with it at all it certainly would be infallible and the ultimate truth and unable to be picked apart. If it is man made(which it seems to be) it is easily verifiable or falsifiable which has been done.
What is left are the miracles. They occur no where else but inside the pages of the OT and NT. Within those stories they mention witnesses. The witnesses had to be a mix of believers and non believers. Except for Paul and a few anonymous writers NOBODY else even jotted down a single thing about any of those miracles and especially nobody mentioned anything about witnessing a man ascending into the sky.
I have to put myself into the shoes of a non believer in Jesus while hearing about him preaching all over town. I'd have heard that he was a preacher and a trouble maker. I would have heard the rumors if not witnessed the early miracles. By the time he was arrested I sure there was quite a crowd that gathered both for and against him along with many others who have no dog in the fight but just show up for public executions because it was something to do. I (as someone who was there)would have watched him die on the cross. I would have heard the rumblings in the crowd as the ordeal took place. I would have been very interested in the talk that he shall rise again.
I am sure that word would have spread quickly about the tomb being empty and the guy that was dead is not in there. I would have heard about sightings of him. I may have even been one of the 500 that watched him ascend skyward.
What Would Bullethead Do?
I would have told everybody what I just witnessed even if I was in my current state of CensoredCensored-O-Meter spinning at max rpm.
I would have made sure to record it or go to someone else that could. I would have sought out ither that I knew who were in the crowd that also witnessed that either then or today would be the single most awesome thing that anyone would have seen.
But...NOBODY did that. No believer or non believer recorded it. No scholar or educated person that could write wrote down anything about it.
I then think along the lines....was these sort of events so common that nobody batted an eye and hust eent on about their lives every time someone turned water to wine, walked across water, cane back from the dead and shot into the sky?
OR
Is it TOTAL superstitious nonsense that darn near every culture of the time used to wow potential believers into following along? I wonder why these interactions between all these Gods and people just stopped all of a sudden.
And then I think about Babe Ruth.
We have more witnesses for his deeds than The Son of God and God himself.
The Great Bambino doesnt have a few anonymous sports writers that wrote things down that claim 500 people saw The Babe do what he did on the field. He had thousands of fans and foes that watched him do his deeds. We have autographs. We have a historical trail that can be followed. If someone along the way said that after The Babe smacked a grand slam to win the World Series and then just after he touched home plate he ascended above the crowd and into the clouds....well we could check that against the other 20,000 people who would have seen that. We would compare it with all the other people who said the same thing. OR we can compare that with the 20,000 people who never ever even bothered to say a thing about it in any way shape or form.
The silence is deafening.
Regarding the Bible, I think it is an all or nothing deal. If a GOD has ANYTHING to do with it at all it certainly would be infallible and the ultimate truth and unable to be picked apart. If it is man made(which it seems to be) it is easily verifiable or falsifiable which has been done.
What is left are the miracles. They occur no where else but inside the pages of the OT and NT. Within those stories they mention witnesses. The witnesses had to be a mix of believers and non believers. Except for Paul and a few anonymous writers NOBODY else even jotted down a single thing about any of those miracles and especially nobody mentioned anything about witnessing a man ascending into the sky.
I have to put myself into the shoes of a non believer in Jesus while hearing about him preaching all over town. I'd have heard that he was a preacher and a trouble maker. I would have heard the rumors if not witnessed the early miracles. By the time he was arrested I sure there was quite a crowd that gathered both for and against him along with many others who have no dog in the fight but just show up for public executions because it was something to do. I (as someone who was there)would have watched him die on the cross. I would have heard the rumblings in the crowd as the ordeal took place. I would have been very interested in the talk that he shall rise again.
I am sure that word would have spread quickly about the tomb being empty and the guy that was dead is not in there. I would have heard about sightings of him. I may have even been one of the 500 that watched him ascend skyward.
What Would Bullethead Do?
I would have told everybody what I just witnessed even if I was in my current state of CensoredCensored-O-Meter spinning at max rpm.
I would have made sure to record it or go to someone else that could. I would have sought out ither that I knew who were in the crowd that also witnessed that either then or today would be the single most awesome thing that anyone would have seen.
But...NOBODY did that. No believer or non believer recorded it. No scholar or educated person that could write wrote down anything about it.
I then think along the lines....was these sort of events so common that nobody batted an eye and hust eent on about their lives every time someone turned water to wine, walked across water, cane back from the dead and shot into the sky?
OR
Is it TOTAL superstitious nonsense that darn near every culture of the time used to wow potential believers into following along? I wonder why these interactions between all these Gods and people just stopped all of a sudden.
And then I think about Babe Ruth.
We have more witnesses for his deeds than The Son of God and God himself.
The Great Bambino doesnt have a few anonymous sports writers that wrote things down that claim 500 people saw The Babe do what he did on the field. He had thousands of fans and foes that watched him do his deeds. We have autographs. We have a historical trail that can be followed. If someone along the way said that after The Babe smacked a grand slam to win the World Series and then just after he touched home plate he ascended above the crowd and into the clouds....well we could check that against the other 20,000 people who would have seen that. We would compare it with all the other people who said the same thing. OR we can compare that with the 20,000 people who never ever even bothered to say a thing about it in any way shape or form.
The silence is deafening.
ambush80
Senior Member
I believe that any of us could vastly improve the Bible in 5 minutes. We could make it more moral and less divisive with ease.
So it sounds like you might be leaning towards predestination but it's based on a feeling and not the logical arguments some have made here.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Then what is the purpose of having the Bible if there is no way to know who or what is real or no way to know what happened or did not?
I cannot justify taking the things that I like from it and putting an ounce of faith into them.
I do take it for what it is,and why I went away from it, its organized followers and it's main Character.
ambush80
Senior Member
There's all that kind of evidence and then there's the claim that "I felt Him and I can't tell you anymore about it than that but I know what I felt".
To me that's absolutely the most compelling piece of non-evidence that there is. I mean, seriously. What am I supposed to make of that?
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
I can't say if there is a purpose for having the bible. Yea, I agree, slippery slope picking and choosing. What I have done is eliminate everything except the one miracle of him being raised from the dead. Simplified it to the bare core.
ambush80
Senior Member
I discussed how that seems to be the last straw that believers hold onto in the Jordan Peterson thread; even for Peterson. My point there was if you believe one of the supernatural claims in a book full of them then why wouldn't you believe any of the others or hypothesize the possibility of other ones?
WaltL1
Senior Member
I'm only a couple of minutes in but my initial thought -
His/their goal seems akin to me of saying "We want to make hot sauce more appealing to people who don't like hot sauce because its too hot so we are going to make hot sauce not hot anymore".
His/their goal seems akin to me of saying "We want to make hot sauce more appealing to people who don't like hot sauce because its too hot so we are going to make hot sauce not hot anymore".
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
If it was unique to just one diety....there might be something to it. But feelings....?
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Agree and yes, that ONE miracle....I would be inclined to think that something of that magnitude would have been talked about and recorded by believers and nonbelievers alike.
To me, that one becomes none.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Yes!
If you don't like all of what you are reading, just read the parts you like.
And I think that is done quite regularly.
jmharris23
Moderator
So here’s my point in asking you this. I just wanted ya’lls opinion of and responses to a preacher who has sort of hedges his bets on the Bible trying to make it more appealing to those who don’t believe. Thanks for listening and replying!
