brutally honest
Senior Member
I like smaller churches, too.
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Church Switchers
- Thread starter brutally honest
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I like smaller churches, too.
Good topic, thanks for posting.
gordon 2
Senior Member
To be certain, what is the topic? Preferring smaller churches? Church hopping? Why believers church hop? etc... I don't really know what THE topic is.???
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I took it as the ”why” of changing faiths. In my own case “church hop” was a deliberate search for a home. Not content in the faith I was raised in. I was in a state of research and visitation to confirm what I read about a church. Did they walk the walk.
The couple talked about walking in and out of mega churches without feeling a connection. I don't think you have to be a small church to be welcoming. The large church just has to work harder at it. I had an interest in the faith of our new church before we attended. I would say our church is medium sized. Elders welcoming a new face with an invitation to stay for refreshments after. That being chance to meet the congregation members. Hearing discussion of issues of interest and testimony at the gathering. A gift bag of cookies and literature on the church, contact info and schedule of church events made me feel they were at least welcoming. I went back and found the church a community of people wanting a relationship with God who shared many like values.
The couple talked about walking in and out of mega churches without feeling a connection. I don't think you have to be a small church to be welcoming. The large church just has to work harder at it. I had an interest in the faith of our new church before we attended. I would say our church is medium sized. Elders welcoming a new face with an invitation to stay for refreshments after. That being chance to meet the congregation members. Hearing discussion of issues of interest and testimony at the gathering. A gift bag of cookies and literature on the church, contact info and schedule of church events made me feel they were at least welcoming. I went back and found the church a community of people wanting a relationship with God who shared many like values.
brutally honest
Senior Member
Yes, I’m sure some of the mega churches do a good job in this area. Unfortunately, it’s easy to be invisible in a church of thousands (with multiple campuses.)
My “church switching” has always been because I moved. The video, however, focuses on other reasons:
1) changes in the church
2) not having needs met
3) issues with the pastor
gordon 2
Senior Member
It occurs to me that a church ( assembly) with minimum change able to provide for all needs met where issues with the pastor(s) though they occur don't derail the purpose for the church or scandalize the assembly might be what folks are looking for.
The churches that minister Solo fides along with grace for faith and minimum sacrament are inviting church hoppers perhaps. The aspects of this Church, its fundamental doctrines, are simply not sufficient to provide for all of the spiritual needs of individuals.
For these limiting options church hopping, switching, by getting one's self under a new bible based pastor with a slightly new perspective on scripture in order to grow spiritually or getting something hopefully added to one's faith, perhaps after one has emptied the well of this and that church or assembly, of this or that pastor one goes on to the next and then again on to another one.
On the other hand, one thing with the Church that would minister grace with the sacraments is that it would be immune to issues with priests and bishops, elders, and popes. It would be immune to interpersonal differences within the greater body. It would be more patient than violently reacting with quitting and getting on with something new.
People who what to switch in sacramental assemblies have few places to switch to if they hold that sacraments confer most of the graces we require. Unless one wants to hop in the other camp because they don't know yet, they have not looked or sought hard enough what it is they might want which is in what they switched from.
The sacramental Church has these things going for itself, from which many take for granted: Faith, the bible and a bunch of sacraments and a reverence for tradition and especially the tradition of the early Church. And granted many take it and many leave it yet often return after a time away for yet they are still hungry.
It's easy to be uncomfortable with the way a bible study is going, or that a good part of worship and fellowship is devoted to righteousness politics, but with sacraments as ministering graces from God if the faithful so believe they are able to weather any storm the world might throw at them from scandals in the body, from sinfulness in general, from leaders a bit nutz, from political campaigns kissing the gospel baby, from evil forces.
It seems to me that bible alone assembly invites assembly hoping, because the bible is simply not enough and it never was. If people have issues with pastors, if they don't believe their needs are met, if the values they have for themselves are not reflected in the assemblies they occupy, chances are they have issues with God's grace, how God ministers it by the Church independent of the sinners who lead it and serve in other ways and sometimes with hypocrisy and sometimes outright evilness.
If baptism can be ministered by anyone and be effective, ministered by sinners at that, how much more can all of God's grace be ministered by the sacraments which are available through the Sacramental Church independent of the imperfections of all believers?
The churches that minister Solo fides along with grace for faith and minimum sacrament are inviting church hoppers perhaps. The aspects of this Church, its fundamental doctrines, are simply not sufficient to provide for all of the spiritual needs of individuals.
For these limiting options church hopping, switching, by getting one's self under a new bible based pastor with a slightly new perspective on scripture in order to grow spiritually or getting something hopefully added to one's faith, perhaps after one has emptied the well of this and that church or assembly, of this or that pastor one goes on to the next and then again on to another one.
On the other hand, one thing with the Church that would minister grace with the sacraments is that it would be immune to issues with priests and bishops, elders, and popes. It would be immune to interpersonal differences within the greater body. It would be more patient than violently reacting with quitting and getting on with something new.
People who what to switch in sacramental assemblies have few places to switch to if they hold that sacraments confer most of the graces we require. Unless one wants to hop in the other camp because they don't know yet, they have not looked or sought hard enough what it is they might want which is in what they switched from.
The sacramental Church has these things going for itself, from which many take for granted: Faith, the bible and a bunch of sacraments and a reverence for tradition and especially the tradition of the early Church. And granted many take it and many leave it yet often return after a time away for yet they are still hungry.
It's easy to be uncomfortable with the way a bible study is going, or that a good part of worship and fellowship is devoted to righteousness politics, but with sacraments as ministering graces from God if the faithful so believe they are able to weather any storm the world might throw at them from scandals in the body, from sinfulness in general, from leaders a bit nutz, from political campaigns kissing the gospel baby, from evil forces.
It seems to me that bible alone assembly invites assembly hoping, because the bible is simply not enough and it never was. If people have issues with pastors, if they don't believe their needs are met, if the values they have for themselves are not reflected in the assemblies they occupy, chances are they have issues with God's grace, how God ministers it by the Church independent of the sinners who lead it and serve in other ways and sometimes with hypocrisy and sometimes outright evilness.
If baptism can be ministered by anyone and be effective, ministered by sinners at that, how much more can all of God's grace be ministered by the sacraments which are available through the Sacramental Church independent of the imperfections of all believers?
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Spotlite
Resident Homesteader
Number 3 is probably the biggest reason for most.
brutally honest
Senior Member
I wonder if the “swipe left/right” world of dating apps has affected people looking for a church.
I’m way beyond the dating app world, but I know you can sign up and look at hundreds (or even thousands) of profiles in minutes/hours.
Likewise, it’s so easy to screen churches without ever setting foot inside the door. Virtually every church has a website and/or Facebook page with an FAQ or “what we believe” page.
Spotlite
Resident Homesteader
Good point - I know a few folks that have moved to other towns due on line dating.
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Lot to be said on this. Churches grow and churches die. Just because a church is growing isn't a sign of a healthy church. Lot of churches are growing because they are telling people just what they want to hear. Lot of churches are dying for the same reason.
Lot of churches are dying because they are preaching the gospel but have little to no dedication to mission work, but I don't know one church that isn't growing if it's preaching the gospel our love and heavily dedicated to mission work (carrying that gopsel to a lost and suffering world.)
There's a thirst for the gospel out there-maybe greater than ever, maybe less, but if members are content to treat the church like a perfunctory inner circle outsiders need to join instead of a rallying point in which everyone comes in, gets equipped to exit and then actually exits in order to take the gospel to everyone outside those doors the church will stagnate and die.
We aren't called to convert a soul, but we are commanded to be continually engaged in conversion. My measure isn't how many are converted, but do my actions show I'm dedicated to and engaged in conversion.
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brownceluse
Senior Member
People follow people. People don't want to be uncomfortable at all. They want to hear something that makes them feel good about "themselves". Everything in our society is centered around self. So is the majority of American Evangelical churches. Our society is ignorant and so are most church members. They don't read, study the bible or even pray. We are experts in every area of our lives that we want to be instead of the most important one, our salvation. You get Muhamad follower and ask them questions about their faith and they quote scriptures faster than your brain can comprehend what they're saying. I guess what I'm saying is why even go or affiliate yourself with anything your not willing learn more about? Or ask yourself why you have no desire to know more? In a nutshell we should seek Gods will where he wants us to go to church as we should in all areas of our lives. Mega churches are everywhere. Some are good I'm sure. Some are not. We put signs in front of churches not bring people in, but to keep people out.
brutally honest
Senior Member
If my church did this, I would run screaming for the door.
Can you elaborate on mission work, that which you feel is required of a church?
brownceluse
Senior Member
This quote by Leonard Ravenhill sums up the American church today perfectly.
““The early Church was married to poverty, prisons and persecutions. Today, the church is married to prosperity, personality, and popularity.”
““The early Church was married to poverty, prisons and persecutions. Today, the church is married to prosperity, personality, and popularity.”
brownceluse
Senior Member
Another one of my favorite quotes by Leonard Ravenhilll.
. “If Jesus had preached the same message that ministers preach today, He would never have been crucified.”
. “If Jesus had preached the same message that ministers preach today, He would never have been crucified.”
The Original Rooster
Mayor of Spring Hill
Doggone brownceluse, i believe you've hit that nail right on the head and driven it down flush! I was thinking something similar but you said it a whole lot better than I could. Two things come to my mind about this. First the rich man asking how he could get to heaven and second, the reminder from Christ that we'll be hated for being believers.
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
I have heard it said that regardless of what size church you attend, you will only know 39 people. You may recognize more people than that, but you will only have some type of relationship with 39, whether your church is 50 people or 5000 people.
I do think the American church has gotten away from the message and purpose of the church. The church exist to equip the saints to go out and tell the message of Christ's life, death, and resurrection. We are a nation with 'itching ears' and want to hear what makes us feel good and we don't want to be confronted with any message that tells us we are messed up people who need a savior. The only thing that will bring us back to a nation that depends on God is extreme issues on a nationwide scale.
I do think the American church has gotten away from the message and purpose of the church. The church exist to equip the saints to go out and tell the message of Christ's life, death, and resurrection. We are a nation with 'itching ears' and want to hear what makes us feel good and we don't want to be confronted with any message that tells us we are messed up people who need a savior. The only thing that will bring us back to a nation that depends on God is extreme issues on a nationwide scale.
brownceluse
Senior Member
Your last sentence sums it up as well. I believe we are headed that way faster than most understand. I heard a preacher say one time. Religion is hanging around the cross, Christianity is getting on the cross.
The Original Rooster
Mayor of Spring Hill
On a personal level, I think that too many pastors now focus on entertaining their church instead of teaching their church. I've seen this at both big and small churches. And, the church's are rewarding this behavior.
Along that entertainment line, some church's are becoming "Six Flags over Jesus" as my wife likes to call them. They've got every entertainment that a country club would except for the golf course. Workout rooms with weight training, walking tracks, basketball gyms, playgrounds, and coffee shops. It's not like these church's that I'm talking about has a school as well that requires these things.
Tithing has become nothing but the membership fee, and believe me, if you miss a few payments, somebody is going to call you about it. I know some people it's happened to.
I can't help but wonder sometimes, especially after I've heard those church's message, did they get so big because of the message or because membership has its privilege's?
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Are you speaking broadly or specifically: The Great Commission or specific missions?
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