Do you have to be Baptized to go to Heaven?

[Dunamis]

-”one must question if he was truely saved to begin with”

I’m with you, this is between the individual and God. It stands to reason I have been this “individual”. I had backslid. I had a real salvation experience and I WAS saved (still am for those interested). No doubt about it, and nobody could convince me otherwise. I’m sure I am not the only person in the history of Christendom to experience this. In a perfect world nobody backslides and this question wouldn't have to be asked.

-”So, to get saved and think you got some fire insurance aint gone get it....HE expects us to grow in his likeness and you cant do that by living the same life you lived before in the mud and wanting to without remorse.”

My thoughts exactly. Like I said above. In a perfect world this question wouldn’t have to be proposed. That doesn’t always happen. People fall away.

-”The short answer is "yes". Jesus secured your Salvation. Now, in your example above, that person will obviously have to face the consequences of his sin here in this life and in Heaven.”

I have a problem with this. I don’t want to rehash the argument that “does Jesus get crucified every time I fail”. It just seems like a get out of jail free card. Honestly, there is no consequence that WOULD NOT pale in comparison to getting into Glory.

-”God is the one that makes "life happens" situations.”

Not necessarily. He does however ALLOW things to happen. Look in the book of Job.

-’Life is a test of faith from God. How we respond is evidence of our faith.’

Exactly. When people are saved they receive a “measure” of faith. Although that measure is sufficient, we humans don’t always make the right decisions.


PLEASE: Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that every time we mess up or sin that our Glory Membership card gets revoked, but “OSAS” really does seem “too good to be true”. At the root of OSAS no matter what I do after I get saved, I’ve got a ticket to Glory that can‘t be taken away, even if I completely disregard my salvation. It doesn't sit well with me for some reason...

 

[rjcruiser]

but “OSAS” really does seem “too good to be true”. At the root of OSAS no matter what I do after I get saved, I’ve got a ticket to Glory that can‘t be taken away, even if I completely disregard my salvation. It doesn't sit well with me for some reason...

Doesn't Salvation sound "too good to be true?" I mean, it is not of us, but is a free gift of God?

my point is you have Joe Blow over here that preaches OSAS and secured salvation while sleeping with the neighbors wife cause he has nothing to worry about, he can do what ever cause he has been saved.

You never have free reign to sin. See Rom 6:1-2

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Also, once you are saved, you are a new creature. See 2 Cor 5:17 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.


Also, See Matthew 7 for notes on people who say they are Christians, yet live like they want to and live in sin.

15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.

18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

This is the problem with most tele-evangelists and seeker-friendly churches. They teach a watered down salvation message. People believe that if they are in Church on Sunday and after doing something wrong, say "I'm sorry" they'll get into heaven.

 

[Dunamis]

-"Doesn't Salvation sound "too good to be true?" I mean, it is not of us, but is a free gift of God? "

I mean no offense. I know cookie cutter Chritsian answers when I see them.

-"At the root of OSAS no matter what I do after I get saved, I’ve got a ticket to Glory that can‘t be taken away, even if I completely disregard my salvation."

So you agree?

 

[PWalls]

-"At the root of OSAS no matter what I do after I get saved, I’ve got a ticket to Glory that can‘t be taken away, even if I completely disregard my salvation."

So you agree?

I would "question" your "Salvation" if you could completely disregard it.

 

[farmasis]

how about this for a question? I wonder if I walk with HIM daily, and I make HIM LORD of my life, have fellowship regularly with brothers and sisters in CHRIST, read HIS WORD daily. Talk to HIM in prayer so that I can build my relationship with HIM, SO that I can be in HIS will for my life, attend church as he has commanded to worship HIM===NOT TO SEE if I can get somethin out of it for me---------but to praise AND WORSHIP HIM......Im still a pig who wants to run to the mud.......we all are.....but through obedience and seeking what he has for my purpose for his GLORY, HE TAKES THE TASTE of the mud from my mouth and from my thoughts. Yet, when I am not in touch with HIM and I dont seek HIM, my relationship is distant when I have jumped back in the mud, not because I want the things of the WORLD, but because I have focused on the WORLD and not HIM. That is the difference, I may be like the hogg at the show who has been cleaned up, sprayed with perfume, and have a big red bow around my neck but the hogg will always run to the mud. Once you have been TRULY SAVED, you may get in the mud....but unlike the hogg, you know through THE HOLY SPIRIT......that you shouldn't be in the mud.....I ONCE WAS BLIND BUT NOW I SEE. OBEDIENCE does not keep me free from sin. But it can help me from a path of distruction...and bearing no fruit. So, to get saved and think you got some fire insurance aint gone get it....HE expects us to grow in his likeness and you cant do that by living the same life you lived before in the mud and wanting to without remorse.

You didn't have to talk so dirty did you?
Good post.

 

[farmasis]

my point is you have Joe Blow over here that preaches OSAS and secured salvation while sleeping with the neighbors wife cause he has nothing to worry about, he can do what ever cause he has been saved.

Then of course, you have your statement above..............

Which one is right or wrong is not the issue, you have 2 different versions of OSAS that others hear.

I guess I understand what you are saying, however, we are not far off from each other. We both think there is only one salvation and the results for disobedience as Christians can be reward or consequences. OSAS proponents just believe that the consequences do not included losing your salvation.

 

[Dunamis]

I would "question" your "Salvation" if you could completely disregard it.

Again, I WAS that guy! I know the decision I made. I know what happened to me. I was a changed man and I don't need someone else's questions to validate me. Things happened and I CHOSE TO WALK AWAY.

EDIT: Just thought I would add that I've been saved for several years now. I'm not backslidden

 

[rjcruiser]

-"At the root of OSAS no matter what I do after I get saved, I’ve got a ticket to Glory that can‘t be taken away, even if I completely disregard my salvation."

So you agree?

No...because if someone disregards their salvation...they are not saved. If you are truly saved, you won't ever disregard your salvation.

Here's another reason that I believe OSAS. I believe in predestination/election. So....God chose me to be a Christian before the foundations of the world. He had my name written in the lambs book of life far before I was even born.

See this post for reasoning/discussion/debate http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=210265

So, if God chose me, there is nothing that I can do to unchoose God.


Also, this brings about the reason for church discipline. See Matthew 18

15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

So, it is Biblical to believe/think that someone who is in un-repentant sin is a non-believer.

 

[Dunamis]

wow...

 

[Dunamis]

-"because if someone disregards their salvation...they are not saved"

Exactly! They walk away.

-"I believe in predestination/election"

2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

As far as predestination: God chose everyone to be saved, but we have to CHOOSE whether or not we walk into salvation. It is a free gift extended to us, but it's meaningless unless we accept it!

-"So, if God chose me, there is nothing that I can do to unchoose God."

Um, yea! We are not angels that we no ability to choose. What father want His children to "love" Him simply because we have to or are pre-programed to do so. It is a choice.

 

[farmasis]

Doesn't Salvation sound "too good to be true?" I mean, it is not of us, but is a free gift of God?

The more I grow physically and spiritually, I realize that grace sounds too good to be true. I see how dirty my life has been and how disgusted my heavenly Father must be when he reviews it. By any standard other than the worlds I have not lived up to a life worthy to be presented to a holy God. For him to accept me because of what his son has done for me does seem too god to be true. Grace and mercy means so much to me.

Grace is getting what I DO NOT deserve.
Mercy is NOT getting what I DO deserve.

 

[farmasis]

Um, yea! We are not angels that we no ability to choose. What father want His children to "love" Him simply because we have to or are pre-programed to do so. It is a choice.

We have free will to choose him, but not to unchoose him. That is a beautiful promise of God. He will never leave us or forsake us, even if we do to him.

 

[Dunamis]

The more I grow physically and spiritually, I realize that grace sounds too good to be true. I see how dirty my life has been and how disgusted my heavenly Father must be when he reviews it. By any standard other than the worlds I have not lived up to a life worthy to be presented to a holy God. For him to accept me because of what his son has done for me does seem too god to be true. Grace and mercy means so much to me.

Grace is getting what I DO NOT deserve.
Mercy is NOT getting what I DO deserve.

You and me both! I get plum embarrassed sometimes when I thnk of some of the stu[id things I did in my life, but His grace is sufficient!

 

[rjcruiser]

We have free will to choose him, but not to unchoose him. That is a beautiful promise of God. He will never leave us or forsake us, even if we do to him.

Well...we won't re-hash this one, but how can you choose to be saved, but not choose to be un-saved? Doesn't make sense to me, but hey, atleast we agree on the OSAS

You are totally right about God never leaving us or forsaking us. It is a wonderful promise.

Dunamis, it is important to consistently test your own salvation. See I John and know that how you respond to the "tough hands" that God deals you reflects your spiritual condition (See James 1).

 

[Dunamis]

I'll say this: We will certainly have to agree to disagree. That makes you guys no-less my brothers-in-Christ. If Christians would learn the concept of "agreeing to disagree" while remaining "brothers in the faith" maybe we would not have so much animosity within the church.

 

[rjcruiser]

I'll say this: We will certainly have to agree to disagree. That makes you guys no-less my brothers-in-Christ. If Christians would learn the concept of "agreeing to disagree" while remaining "brothers in the faith" maybe we would not have so much animosity within the church.

I agree with you somewhat...on doctrinal issues that do not determine salvation...I agree. However, on issues such as Lordship Salvation, Inerrancy of Scripture, Doctrine of Grace etc etc, those are doctrines that have no wiggle room and is impossible to agree to disagree.

I believe that your post above was meaning this based on your previous posts.

 

[farmasis]

If we can agree on the 95%, I can live with the other 5%.

It is called keeping the main thing, the main thing.

 

[Spotlite]

I have never heard that other version preached that you and others say. I have never heard a preacher in a pulpit or anywhere else say OSAS is a license to sin. It doesn't make doctrinal sense and is no where in the Bible. Anyone that preaches that or believes in it is clearly and utterly wrong. It is my opinion that this viewpoint was started by people who do not believe in OSAS to try and discredit that doctrine or was started by people weak in the Word.

Weak in the Word would probably apply better than any. I personally have never heard a preacher preach this, but I know my brother in law tells me all the time "I can go out and kill someone or rape someone and if I get killed in a car wreck before I have time to repent, it dont matter, Im saved" I do know a preacher that preaches this way, but never heard him preach. I used to work for him and I have heard it a million times over from him, "it dont matter what you do as long as you have been saved". I will not name his denominational belief cause that tends to categorize.

I guess I understand what you are saying

 

[farmasis]

Weak in the Word would probably apply better than any. I personally have never heard a preacher preach this, but I know my brother in law tells me all the time "I can go out and kill someone or rape someone and if I get killed in a car wreck before I have time to repent, it dont matter, Im saved" I do know a preacher that preaches this way, but never heard him preach. I used to work for him and I have heard it a million times over from him, "it dont matter what you do as long as you have been saved". I will not name his denominational belief cause that tends to categorize.

It helps me to remember that if you break one commandment (like lying) you break them all. You are just as guilty had you raped, murdered, or committed idolatry. I think it is just as wrong to get wrapped up in self righteousness as a Christian as it is to cheapen grace by using it as a license to sin.

 

[BRANCHWYNN]

I just cant understand how GOD can love us so much that he gave his only begotten SON to die. MY son is 8 years old, I could never imagine him going through the pain and anguish that JESUS must have felt on the cross. And to top it all off...he did it for all of us. But that is the reality of WHO he is...our brains can not fathom(sp) why AND how HE operates. We are not suppose to understand how he can SAVE someone FOREVER, even if they seem to indulge daily in their sin. You can't LOGICALLY understand the GRACE and MERCY of GOD. He supplies these when we need them. Its HIS to grant and HIS to withhold. The physical tangible steps that we may see a person take on one SUNDAY morning may be just that. To come down and acknowledge HIM and to even speak the words ouloud in front of a huge congregation and jump in the pool......do not mean that this person is SAVED. Dont get me wrong, they may be...but they may not. ACCEPTANCE is the key. To say the words and go through the motions without TRUE accepatance of CHRIST, is still just a lost soul who THINKS he is saved. If the presentation of salvation is brought to one saying that you can be saved without change in your life.....you can live like the world and be saved then YOU ARE NOT SAVED. There would be no reason for JESUS to die on the cross.....remember he died for our sins. It is obvious that JESUS wnats us to try our best to live a life as free from it as we can. So to say I can live like the devil cause I got my ticket for heaven, is to be lost and undone. To still commit sin and still enjoy it without remorse knowing we need to turn from it and seek GOD to take it from us.....is not OSAS. Its just someone who never was saved to start with. The proof of this is easy, there is not one CHRISTIAN that I know including myself, who has been saved and not committed sin....that includes the MOST OBEDIENT CHRISTIAN I know. But my focus should not be on whether HE is going to sin or not. NEWS FLASH...he will. So the focus should be on being LIKE CHRIST not on the sins of the lost nor the saved. SO if someone on here wants to believe that THEY are saved and they can rob a bank tomorrow. What I say and think will not change what this person thinks. It is a matter again, "AM I IN GODS WILL FOR MY LIFE", a question we need to ask ourselves ALL DAY, EVERYDAY.