Doe Harvest

[kayaksteve]

I think that limiting doe days for archery in the mountain counties would definitely have a positive impact. It wasn’t as big of a deal until baiting was legalized. It also seems like archery is way more popular now especially with younger hunters which is great as long as it’s managed in a way that’s sustainable. I hate to see any more regulation than necessary but it seems that it is becoming more of a necessity these days. Self regulation is great when it works but I think this is one area regulations are needed.

 

[Doug B.]

I think that limiting doe days for archery in the mountain counties would definitely have a positive impact. It wasn’t as big of a deal until baiting was legalized. It also seems like archery is way more popular now especially with younger hunters which is great as long as it’s managed in a way that’s sustainable. I hate to see any more regulation than necessary but it seems that it is becoming more of a necessity these days. Self regulation is great when it works but I think this is one area regulations are needed.

Actually, it has been a big deal in the mountains since they started allowing doe days. The deer population was declining before they ever started allowing baiting.

There has always been years of little to no mast in the mountains. It is hard for deer and other game to reproduce without something to eat. This region can't be painted with the same brush as the rest of the state.

 

[Gadestroyer74]

I have one them fancy crossbows you mentioned. I have shot one doe in a heavy populated county in South Georgia and hunted with it all season. Know why it’s 1 ? Because I CHOSE to shoot one. It’s not a weapon problem. There has long been less deer in the mountains areas of north ga.so that would suggest either there is a poaching people problem or there isn’t enough food to support a higher deer density. DNR have the ability to restrict harvest ETC… it’s not one single thing that’s the problem,it’s a combination of things that got it to this point. You can have all the deer you could possibly get if you do not have the food they will starve to death. Most of the mtn areas are mostly hardwoods no food equals no deer. There isn’t the habitat to support a higher deer population. If weapons was the issue guns have a far greater impact than bow or crossbow. Yeah try shooting 50 plus yards in the woods with a crossbow.. not happening much

 

[C.Killmaster]

I remember waiting in line to check out deer at the check station.
Seriously.
Over 100 killed easily. This year, I think 25? And it was a good year-starting to help not killing does, but we had great weather also.
@C.Killmaster I’d love for you to get a grad student to collar a mature deer and see how much it moves near private up here. I’ve seen big woods studies from penn state and MSU, but not much mixed habitat, but I could really be missing it.
I killed my buck miles from private and fields this year, and he had a stomach full of green grass.

That would certainly be interesting, but I would probably have a hard time justifying the expense. The collars alone are around $4,500 and then you have to pay for deer capture which is also time consuming and expensive.

 

[C.Killmaster]

Actually, it has been a big deal in the mountains since they started allowing doe days. The deer population was declining before they ever started allowing baiting.

There has always been years of little to no mast in the mountains. It is hard for deer and other game to reproduce without something to eat. This region can't be painted with the same brush as the rest of the state.

There actually aren't any reproductive consequences right now, the deer are all plenty healthy enough to produce fawns. It's just that the fawns don't make it long enough to be recruited into the population. Deer body condition has actually gone up over the long term on CNF WMAs, likely because of fewer deer.

 

[Gadestroyer74]

There actually aren't any reproductive consequences right now, the deer are all plenty healthy enough to produce fawns. It's just that the fawns don't make it long enough to be recruited into the population. Deer body condition has actually gone up over the long term on CNF WMAs, likely because of fewer deer.

Could this be due to bears increasing in population or other predation ? Or as I referred to a host of things combined to low overall deer numbers ?

 

[Doug B.]

There actually aren't any reproductive consequences right now, the deer are all plenty healthy enough to produce fawns. It's just that the fawns don't make it long enough to be recruited into the population. Deer body condition has actually gone up over the long term on CNF WMAs, likely because of fewer deer.

I agree with that! Fewer deer give the ones that are here more to eat when it's hard to find food.

The deer here really seem to have a hard time trying to build the herd back though.

 

[C.Killmaster]

I agree with that! Fewer deer give the ones that are here more to eat when it's hard to find food.

The deer here really seem to have a hard time trying to build the herd back though.

The primary issue is poor fawning cover coupled with higher predator numbers than we historically had. In good fawning habitat predator numbers aren't much of a problem and with few predators poor fawning cover isn't a problem. Let's face it, CNF wasn't really awesome deer habitat even 30 years ago. Certainly better than today, but still not as good as many other areas of the state.

 

[ddd-shooter]

Could this be due to bears increasing in population or other predation ? Or as I referred to a host of things combined to low overall deer numbers ?

80% predation on fawns, due to bad fawning cover and exploding predator populations.

ETA: jinx @C.Killmaster

 

[jbogg]

Exactly,. There was quite a bit of bucks and I'm sure does that was killed on private land that boarders forest service because the bait this year. I know of many. It would make you think the population is booming so let's hammer down and in all reality they still need all the help they can get to help with the numbers. It's only more salt in the wound this year. As far as the archery antlerless deal all season, it needs to go. Or at least the crossbows. All it takes is one person that is ambitious enough to really hurt the local population legally. If you don't think people do that your only kidding yourself. I've seen it all season. Some places can stand that pressure but most can't.

It’s definitely complicated, and I don’t pretend to have the answers. I am relatively new to the mountains when compared to a lot of you guys, but I am truly amazed at the stories I’ve heard of what the deer hunting was like 25 years ago. In the big scheme of things there’s relatively little the DNR can do to bring back the deer populations. However, one of the tools in their toolbox is the ability to regulate the doe harvest. I would be in favor of reducing the Doe harvest even more if it meant the mountain deer had a chance of recovering. Between the bear and coyote predation on fawns, coupled with zero timber cutting and infrequent control burns it’s a steep hill to climb.

 

[ddd-shooter]

I have one them fancy crossbows you mentioned. I have shot one doe in a heavy populated county in South Georgia and hunted with it all season. Know why it’s 1 ? Because I CHOSE to shoot one. It’s not a weapon problem. There has long been less deer in the mountains areas of north ga.so that would suggest either there is a poaching people problem or there isn’t enough food to support a higher deer density. DNR have the ability to restrict harvest ETC… it’s not one single thing that’s the problem,it’s a combination of things that got it to this point. You can have all the deer you could possibly get if you do not have the food they will starve to death. Most of the mtn areas are mostly hardwoods no food equals no deer. There isn’t the habitat to support a higher deer population. If weapons was the issue guns have a far greater impact than bow or crossbow. Yeah try shooting 50 plus yards in the woods with a crossbow.. not happening much

Man I’m not trying to take your bow.
I’m archery only all year man, I’m not your enemy.
I just don’t think we should be killing MORE does than bucks in mountain counties.

 

[Doug B.]

The primary issue is poor fawning cover coupled with higher predator numbers than we historically had. In good fawning habitat predator numbers aren't much of a problem and with few predators poor fawning cover isn't a problem. Let's face it, CNF wasn't really awesome deer habitat even 30 years ago. Certainly better than today, but still not as good as many other areas of the state.

That is very true! I have hunted here for 50 years. I doubt I will ever see it like it was in the 70's and 80's. It has never been the best place to deer hunt but it suited me!

 

[ddd-shooter]

That would certainly be interesting, but I would probably have a hard time justifying the expense. The collars alone are around $4,500 and then you have to pay for deer capture which is also time consuming and expensive.

I bet we could round up a few volunteers, lol
Always wanted to see a rocket net in action

 

[jbogg]

One thing that amazes me in the mountains is as tough as it is for deer to make a living up there the hogs seem to be absolutely thriving. I have never seen as many pigs as I did this season. I cover a lot of ground spread throughout the national forest, and I was seeing hogs in every single area that I hunted. I realize they are omnivorous, and are therefore able to survive on a wider variety of food than a deer. Couple that with the fact that they reproduce at an exponential rate, and it is a recipe for disaster. I had an area where the Scarlet Reds were loaded this fall, but the pigs had absolutely taken over that entire mountain. I don’t think you would’ve found a deer within a mile of there. Even the Bears cleared out.

 

[Gadestroyer74]

Man I’m not trying to take your bow.
I’m archery only all year man, I’m not your enemy.
I just don’t think we should be killing MORE does than bucks in mountain counties.

Not a personal vendetta. Stating my views as are you. The problem is a lot more complex than not shooting does which would seem to help.. even if you had more fawning cover you still need the food to support the added population growth. With thick hardwood forest little new growth can grow due to canopy cover. As mentioned above lack of timber harvest in the area. There is a lot of competition in the wild for the available food source that is there. How many hunters do you see say hey let’s goto the mountains and squirrel rabbit coyote hunt etc .. most Americans are now lazy and want convenience and ease of doing things. So you have less people targeting predators and other game. Again this is a very complex issue with alot of variables to simply state all these people bow hunting all year as a contributing factor being a major problem. Doe harvest limit I could agree on.

 

[Gadestroyer74]

I helped manage a mtn property than joined a national forest. First year I hunted it seen 12 deer all year from the stand and only one buck. I Ran a slew of cameras also. Next year I suggested we add corn and soybeans to the fields in the low areas. I think we planted somewhere around 10 acres in corn and beans in addition to the cereal grains. That year seen 80 plus deer and 13 bucks from the stand. I killed an 11 pointer and shot 2 does. What changed ? Food. Pulled deer off the mountains and surrounding areas where there was no food. Land owner had some saw tooth trees a good size cutover burned a couple areas and other improvements over the years to make his land more attractive and hold and keep deer.. he improved the habitat on his property and it made a huge difference in all wild life. He also had a guy trap some for him also. That’s what is not happening on national forest lands in the mountains. Until that occurs it’s going to be the same ole thing.

 

[ddd-shooter]

I helped manage a mtn property than joined a national forest. First year I hunted it seen 12 deer all year from the stand and only one buck. I Ran a slew of cameras also. Next year I suggested we add corn and soybeans to the fields in the low areas. I think we planted somewhere around 10 acres in corn and beans in addition to the cereal grains. That year seen 80 plus deer and 13 bucks from the stand. I killed an 11 pointer and shot 2 does. What changed ? Food. Pulled deer off the mountains and surrounding areas where there was no food. Land owner had some saw tooth trees a good size cutover burned a couple areas and other improvements over the years to make his land more attractive and hold and keep deer.. he improved the habitat on his property and it made a huge difference in all wild life. He also had a guy trap some for him also. That’s what is not happening on national forest lands in the mountains. Until that occurs it’s going to be the same ole thing.

Agree on habitat, we’ve been over that ad nauseam. You’re making my point for me. BECAUSE we know the habitat on public sucks, we know deer are leaving. The issue I’m discussing now is, how many deer are “being pulled” as you say? On a bad mast year, you don’t need soybeans. Just an old grass patch. Or a corn feeder. Then, in one year, we DOUBLE our doe harvest. How many of those does were from public land, where the state has already deemed it bad to kill ANY does?
I’m just pointing out that the state may need to change the regs in order to achieve better deer numbers on public land and poor private land areas.
One thing is certain, those 1000 does will have ZERO fawns that survive, and it wasn’t habitat related.
What if we have a poor mast crop again? Can the herd on public sustain? Should the state allow another 1000 does harvested because we see a bunch in the field when we drive by? “The state says we can.”

I remember deer in the fields 25 years ago, and we aren’t even close to that. I remember ehd in the aughts and we’ve never been the same since.

 

[Gadestroyer74]

I certainly get what you’re saying. It would take a good deal or research and date collecting to be able to determine the causes. As Charlie indicated the resources most likely wouldn’t be there for that.. certainly continuing to blast away isn’t gonna make things better for sure. After reflecting back on the managing part I mentioned above it is clear that pulled a significant amount of deer into that small area think it was like 200 acres…when you look at the vast amount of area in north ga that is national forest, limited resources, lack of logging operations, an increasing human population, Increasing predation lack of food and more deer being shot you have a big problem. Factor in people shooting more meat over all this Covid and living cleaner and off the land it’s easy to see how all this has complied into where it sits now. The million dollar question now is how do you fix this ? One thing is certain you can’t keep shooting the amount of deer does etc if you want it to get better but that’s just a start all the other factors have to be addressed in the cycle for it to be broken.

 

[splatek]

This history and information, along with a short biology lesson from CK, has really helped this newb hunter think about harvest. I think the common hunter makes impressions from seeing deer in the road that doesn’t translate into health of the herd or forest. So this public conversation is truly helpful. Thanks.

I’m no deer serial killer, but I do think that next season I’ll limit my doe hunting to moon mountain counties. Just seems to make sense.

Maybe we’ll get lucky enough to get some string tornadoes to rip through and create some habitat improvements. And maybe the mast crop will get back to cooperating.

 

[Buckman18]

That would be incredible. Interested to know how you came up with that number

Probably about right. I work for the emc that serves that area. Ride those roads the evening before a major front and it’s not uncommon to see 100-200 deer in an evening.

There’s several Creek drainages that tie in to each other in northern Fannin, Union, Towns in GA, and Clay and Cherokee Counties in NC that have a stupid amount of deer in them.

Pinelog, Gumlog, Ivylog, Martins Creek, Cutcane, Nottely River, Toccoa River, etc… Old 64 in Warne, Brasstown, Murphy NC…

The herd balance seems to be way out of sorts with many many does per buck. Just based on observations..