Madman
Senior Member
It is evident who is twisting the Scriptures. As I said, do as you please, but be careful in following a man.
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Harmonizing the new testament with the old testament
- Thread starter jwf2506
- Start date
The text about Peter's vision really isn't that hard and if you'd like we can break the text down even further and maybe you'll understand better, I don't mind one bit to do it.
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I understand what you're saying but Paul would never have denounced the law because he believed in keeping it whole heartily and he did keep it.
Madman
Senior Member
Thank you for your offer, I have, and believe the context of the Scriptures and 2000+ years of Church teaching on the subject.
Best of luck with the man who can answer your questions. Don’t make this more difficult than it is.
This chapter is focused on a man named Cornelius, whom Luke calls devout and upright (Acts 10:2, 22). Yahweh was hearing the prayers of Cornelius; they had come up as a memorial before Him (Acts 10:4). By this we know Cornelius was not turning his ear from hearing the law, else his prayers would have been an abomination (Proverbs 28:9).
The issue was that Cornelius was not raised as a Hebrew, and thus uncircumcised. The vision given to Peter was to assure him that it was okay to go to Cornelius, and witness to him about forgiveness of sins by faith in Yeshua, the Son of Yahweh.
The vision (Acts 10:9-16) was a large sheet containing all sorts of animals, clean and unclean. The voice in the vision tells Peter to get up, kill and eat. Peter’s response to the voice? “No Lord! I’ve never eaten anything common or unclean!”
The voice then talks back to Peter and says, “What the Almighty has made clean, you must not call common.” A more technical translation here is, “What the Almighty deems to be clean, you should not call common.” The point is not that Yahweh is cleansing something, but that Peter should not deem common what Yahweh already deems clean. Notice that the voice never tells Peter to call something unclean, clean. The voice specifically uses the word common when correcting Peter. There is a difference between something common and unclean.
And example of an unclean animal would be a camel or pig. Something common would be a cow that had been strangled or not slaughtered properly. The cow is not unclean, but is considered common because of secondary reasons. Yeshua is telling Peter, “The things that the Almighty considers clean, don’t refer to them as common.”
Acts 10:17 tells us that Peter was deeply perplexed about what the vision he had seen might mean. Why? Almost everyone I talk to seems to interpret the vision very quickly, by saying we are allowed to eat unclean animals. Peter, however, knew that Yeshua (the sinless Messiah) was not telling him to violate the law. This is why Peter was perplexed. He knew that there must be a deeper meaning to the vision.
The issue was that Cornelius was not raised as a Hebrew, and thus uncircumcised. The vision given to Peter was to assure him that it was okay to go to Cornelius, and witness to him about forgiveness of sins by faith in Yeshua, the Son of Yahweh.
The vision (Acts 10:9-16) was a large sheet containing all sorts of animals, clean and unclean. The voice in the vision tells Peter to get up, kill and eat. Peter’s response to the voice? “No Lord! I’ve never eaten anything common or unclean!”
The voice then talks back to Peter and says, “What the Almighty has made clean, you must not call common.” A more technical translation here is, “What the Almighty deems to be clean, you should not call common.” The point is not that Yahweh is cleansing something, but that Peter should not deem common what Yahweh already deems clean. Notice that the voice never tells Peter to call something unclean, clean. The voice specifically uses the word common when correcting Peter. There is a difference between something common and unclean.
And example of an unclean animal would be a camel or pig. Something common would be a cow that had been strangled or not slaughtered properly. The cow is not unclean, but is considered common because of secondary reasons. Yeshua is telling Peter, “The things that the Almighty considers clean, don’t refer to them as common.”
Acts 10:17 tells us that Peter was deeply perplexed about what the vision he had seen might mean. Why? Almost everyone I talk to seems to interpret the vision very quickly, by saying we are allowed to eat unclean animals. Peter, however, knew that Yeshua (the sinless Messiah) was not telling him to violate the law. This is why Peter was perplexed. He knew that there must be a deeper meaning to the vision.
While Peter thought about the vision (Acts 10:19), three men showed up at his house looking for him. This corresponds to the three times the events in the vision happened to Peter (Acts 10:16). These men come into Peter, explain to him what had taken place at Cornelius’ house, and Peter travels to meet with Cornelius.
In Acts 10:28 we get the climax of the story. Peter speaks to Cornelius: “You know it’s forbidden for a Judahite man to associate with or visit a foreigner.” What did Peter mean by “forbidden?” Was Peter saying that the law of Moses forbade such? I do not believe so. The Torah of Moses welcomes the stranger and teaches to treat them as one born among Israel (Exodus 18:12; Numbers 15:14-16; Exodus 22:21; Leviticus 19:33-34).*
Peter was learning that just because Cornelius wasn’t raised Hebrew, and thus uncircumcised, did not mean he was common. Peter’s ancestor Abraham was also called in un-circumcision, and even justified before he was circumcised (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:9-11). Yahweh showed Peter that he shouldn’t call any un-circumcised man common or unclean for salvation (Acts 10:28).
Prior to this, the gospel message about Yeshua only went to circumcised Israelites, or proselytes to the faith of Israel. Here, the Almighty was revealing to Peter than a man outside of the Covenant could receive this gospel message (and enter the Covenant) by faith, apart from converting to become a Jew the traditional way.
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*Peter's mentioning of forbidden is a reference to the tradition of the elders (Matthew 15:1-2). The Pharisees of Yeshua's day believed that Moses not only received the Torah from the Most High (that he [Moses] wrote down), but that he also received a list of regulations from the Most High that he then passed down orally. Moses then taught them to the 70 elders (orally), and from generation to generation, these laws were passed down by word of mouth all the way to the Pharisees. (see The Works of Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 13.10.6)
In Acts 10:28 we get the climax of the story. Peter speaks to Cornelius: “You know it’s forbidden for a Judahite man to associate with or visit a foreigner.” What did Peter mean by “forbidden?” Was Peter saying that the law of Moses forbade such? I do not believe so. The Torah of Moses welcomes the stranger and teaches to treat them as one born among Israel (Exodus 18:12; Numbers 15:14-16; Exodus 22:21; Leviticus 19:33-34).*
Peter was learning that just because Cornelius wasn’t raised Hebrew, and thus uncircumcised, did not mean he was common. Peter’s ancestor Abraham was also called in un-circumcision, and even justified before he was circumcised (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:9-11). Yahweh showed Peter that he shouldn’t call any un-circumcised man common or unclean for salvation (Acts 10:28).
Prior to this, the gospel message about Yeshua only went to circumcised Israelites, or proselytes to the faith of Israel. Here, the Almighty was revealing to Peter than a man outside of the Covenant could receive this gospel message (and enter the Covenant) by faith, apart from converting to become a Jew the traditional way.
----------
*Peter's mentioning of forbidden is a reference to the tradition of the elders (Matthew 15:1-2). The Pharisees of Yeshua's day believed that Moses not only received the Torah from the Most High (that he [Moses] wrote down), but that he also received a list of regulations from the Most High that he then passed down orally. Moses then taught them to the 70 elders (orally), and from generation to generation, these laws were passed down by word of mouth all the way to the Pharisees. (see The Works of Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 13.10.6)
You keep saying you choose to believe the context and the 2000+ years of church teachings, what I just posted is the context broke down using scripture to explain and back up how I now understand this text [ And I for a long time understood this text the exact same way as you do now] ,and as far the 2000+ years of church teachings just look at where that has gotten to , a lot of churches are teaching that homosexuality is not a sin, and look how they have watered down what keeping the sabbath actually means, but they don't mind preaching on tithing your money which most of them has that wrong as well and that is just a start of what's wrong with most of today's churches, I'm not saying this to bash other churches I'm just saying you are telling me to be careful of listening to men, I am asking you to be careful of the church teachings as well.
Oh and one more point, keep in mind Peter's vision takes place years after the Messiah ascended and you see that Peter says he has never eaten anything common or unclean so we know for sure he was still keeping the law of Yahweh after walking with and being taught by Yeshua, so if the law had been done away with surely the Apostles what have been the first to know.
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brutally honest
Senior Member
Just like some white people want to be black:
… some Christian people want to be Jewish.
… some Christian people want to be Jewish.
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And this is what Matthew 7:6 is referring to " Do not give what is holy to the dogs and don't throw your pearls before the swine or they will trample them then turn and tear you to pieces"Just like some white people want to be black:
… some Christian people want to be Jewish.
But I will still pray for you.
And I will give a little more free education
A Jew can be a Christian......ain't that cool
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brutally honest
Senior Member
brutally honest
Senior Member
Another fun fact Peter and the other Apostles where there because they were keeping the feast of Pentecost, are you ready,....are you ready............here it comes...............keeping the feast of Pentecost is part of the law of MosesThe Jews on Pentecost thought it was totally cool.
..........isn't that coolbrutally honest
Senior Member
Another fun fact Peter and the other Apostles where there because they were keeping the feast of Pentecost, are you ready,....are you ready............here it comes...............keeping the feast of Pentecost is part of the law of Moses
Totally cool and many years before the first gentile was baptized.
are you sure about thatbrutally honest
Senior Member
Yes. The earliest date I can find for Cornelius’ baptism is AD 36. That seems very early, though. I know I’ve seen later estimates of the date.
AD 36-40 seems to be the consensus.
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brutally honest
Senior Member
“It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to practise Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity …”
— Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch - “Letter to the Magnesians, Ch. 10”
— Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch - “Letter to the Magnesians, Ch. 10”
Well let's look at this , we know That the Apostles believed in and kept the law and They believed that they were saved by grace,
Now look at Cornelius who was not a Jew he believed in the law and understood Peter's teaching of grace.
I apologize for not responding, I actually didn't see this post between going back and forth with "Brutal Honest" and "Mad Man" . Did you look and see if it was answered in the insert . If not we can look at it and see if we can find the answer
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I didn't see anything on it. I couldn't find Janzen discussing in anywhere either.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
The discussion on Cornelius and the timeline of gentile salvation made me think of Paul's revelation to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. Like how long did he preach to the Jews before getting his revelation to spread the gospel to the Gentiles?
Maybe this timeline might help me see why Paul kept torah, etc. before heading out to witness to the Gentile. It's an article from a long gone preacher. I thought it was interesting.
"During that period, up to Acts 28, Paul became a Jew to the Jews (under the Law), and God’s order was “to the Jew first”."
"Paul did not receive his “uncircumcision” gospel from Peter and the Eleven."
"Christ sent Paul, not to baptize."
In Acts 9:1 to 15, we have the record of Paul’s (Saul’s) conversion. Then what followed? He straightway preached Christ (Messiah) in the synagogue.
Now, note carefully what he called this: “preached the faith which he once destroyed.” Galatians 1:23. Remember, Saul never persecuted Gentile Christians. He was turned to Christ before the door of salvation was opened to the Gentiles.
Fourteen years after, by revelation, Paul went again to Jerusalem and told them of a revelation he had received from the risen Christ, “the gospel of the uncircumcision”. Note, the Twelve learned it from Paul and not from Christ.
https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/when-how-where-and-why-did-paul-receive-what/
Maybe this timeline might help me see why Paul kept torah, etc. before heading out to witness to the Gentile. It's an article from a long gone preacher. I thought it was interesting.
"During that period, up to Acts 28, Paul became a Jew to the Jews (under the Law), and God’s order was “to the Jew first”."
"Paul did not receive his “uncircumcision” gospel from Peter and the Eleven."
"Christ sent Paul, not to baptize."
In Acts 9:1 to 15, we have the record of Paul’s (Saul’s) conversion. Then what followed? He straightway preached Christ (Messiah) in the synagogue.
Now, note carefully what he called this: “preached the faith which he once destroyed.” Galatians 1:23. Remember, Saul never persecuted Gentile Christians. He was turned to Christ before the door of salvation was opened to the Gentiles.
Fourteen years after, by revelation, Paul went again to Jerusalem and told them of a revelation he had received from the risen Christ, “the gospel of the uncircumcision”. Note, the Twelve learned it from Paul and not from Christ.
https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/when-how-where-and-why-did-paul-receive-what/
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