Swamprat
Swamprat
200 yard rule was done away with in South Georgia in 2011.
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- Thread starter buckpasser
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Mexican Squealer
Senior Member
My arm chair opinion is that disease is the issue….
saltysenior
Senior Member
according to the 572 discussion's and the 365,834 replies on what is causing the decline of turkey populations , your opinion is very seldom considered....
Turkeytider
Senior Member
It`s interesting to me how so many ( erstwhile turkey population biologists apparently) , think Dr. Chamberlain`s ( and Turkey`s for Tomorrow ,and, I suppose, the joint research with Kentucky) research should be pointed in a dozen different directions than they are, and critical of the methods in which he and his teams pursue information and data. He`s an easy target because he`s recognized nationally by scientific and conservation organizations as an authority in the area of wild turkey biology and population dynamics. IMHO, those that believe his recommendations ( and that`s all they are, he has no authority to enact any regulations ) are based SOLELY on his own personal opinions don`t know much about scientific research or scientific method. For those who think he should take the time and effort to go into great public detail to intimately explain each and every nuance of his, and others, research, down to individual data points, he doesn`t have the time nor is he obligated to do so. He and his teams are too busy in the field at least TRYING to find some answers. I don`t know ( nor does anyone else on this forum, for that matter) where the break through information will come from. As an avid turkey hunter himself, he has the same stake as the rest of us in finding possible solutions to whatever is adversely impacting turkey populations. I`m personally glad he and others are out there trying. I`m fully aware that my personal views on this are in the vast minority of those on this forum. Dr. Chamberlain is apparently the sole villain in this saga, at least according to posters here. I just don`t see him in that light.
Flame away!!
RedHills
Self Banned after losing a Noles bet.
I harvested what I believe to be a satellite gobbler yesterday. Had strands 11" on beard but generally 10.5. I'd Guess 3 yrs old...he fit perfect into what this study is addressing. My initial sighting at about 100 yrds, he was in full strut and reacting to calling and 2 hen decs with a white head half strut jake. When he had cut the distance in half, I started hearing a gobbling tom back in the swamp. He would gobble to my calling but the tom coming never said a word. In fact he never gobbled. He brushed the jake decoy but didn't get further aggresive. He also had led a single hen into the decoy set. He never broke full strut the entire time I watched him, and never uttered a turkey sound. Eventually, I had to shoot him in full strut at 12 yrds. The other tom was still gobbling repeatedly, back down in the swamp but closing ground. They were within 150-200 yrds of each other the entire duration. He "could" have bred that hen and the loud mouth, I assume the dominant, would have never known.
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Arrow3
Senior Member
I too have seen a huge decline over the years. Started hunting in the late 80s as a kid when there were turkeys everywhere in Oglethorpe and Wilkes County where I was hunting.
Nest predators weren't a big deal back then because the population of turkeys was so high. Now with populations lower, the nest predators play a much bigger role.
Habitat loss played a huge role where I live. Every tract of land that had turkeys for me all the way up to just 7-8 years ago have been clearcut to the ground. Hardwoods cut just to be replaced with pines or nothing at all.
Now we're struggling for poult production. The lack of hens and nesting success has diminished so much that we're not replacing what's being killed off by hunters and predators.
Although I'm fine with trying the lowered gobbler limit or 2 for a few years I don't think in the grand scheme of things that's gonna play a major impact on the population. We have got to find a way to increase hen and poult survival.
I do agree with others that disease is what Started the decline and that all of these other factors (the ones they were surviving with) became a much bigger strain on them.
Hogs populations exploding haven't helps things in my neck of the woods either.
Timber companies aren't gonna stop doing what they are doing and larger private tracts that can be controlled are becoming fewer and far between.
I'm afraid we won't be able to turn it around and get it back to how it used to be.
Nest predators weren't a big deal back then because the population of turkeys was so high. Now with populations lower, the nest predators play a much bigger role.
Habitat loss played a huge role where I live. Every tract of land that had turkeys for me all the way up to just 7-8 years ago have been clearcut to the ground. Hardwoods cut just to be replaced with pines or nothing at all.
Now we're struggling for poult production. The lack of hens and nesting success has diminished so much that we're not replacing what's being killed off by hunters and predators.
Although I'm fine with trying the lowered gobbler limit or 2 for a few years I don't think in the grand scheme of things that's gonna play a major impact on the population. We have got to find a way to increase hen and poult survival.
I do agree with others that disease is what Started the decline and that all of these other factors (the ones they were surviving with) became a much bigger strain on them.
Hogs populations exploding haven't helps things in my neck of the woods either.
Timber companies aren't gonna stop doing what they are doing and larger private tracts that can be controlled are becoming fewer and far between.
I'm afraid we won't be able to turn it around and get it back to how it used to be.
buckpasser
Senior Member
I don’t think I’m all that thankful for him. I am thankful for any and all of his hard data. He just tried too hard to make some fictional nonsense be the savior of turkeys. It was stupid then, and even more-so now that states went with it (why, I’ll never know) and “the problem” he “solved” was never found to be one.
He chose to go push his hockey from the roof tops. He pursued the fame and recognition. I don’t feel bad for him now that he’s highly unpopular for it. Maybe he can find a new spotlight in the climate change arena?
Turkeytider
Senior Member
If nothing else, this all has been amusing. When politicians insert themselves into matters of conservation, wildlife management and other issues impacting hunting, we hunters p_ s_ and moan and say " Decisions should be made based upon science and input from the professional biologists ". That`s apparently all well and good as long as the professional biologists don`t 1. Say anything that we disagree with or doesn`t match preconceived notions formed as a result of non-scientific and/or anecdotal observations or 2. ( and far worse ) advocate for or propose something that inconveniences us in some way. Like a shortened turkey season. Really, it all depends on whose ox is getting gored, doesn`t it?
buckpasser
Senior Member
When you’re not on here do you go by “Mike”?
The theory is stupid. It lacks common sense. Like the Covid vax, it should have been tested and proven before being “declared” as anything. The results are in and it was a bust. Now, for it, we have less hunter opportunity. That’s not getting too emotional is it? Pretty factual, right?
cj580guitar
Senior Member
I agree with you also on this. I’m glad that it’s an issue that’s being noticed so that people and the NWTF and TFT are at least trying to do something about it. I have listened to Dr.C and agree with most of what he says. I don’t see him as the villain in all of this. But the guys that get on social media and proclaim that habitat mangement is the only answer and bash people who want to trap nest predators is where I think the divide starting to grow. But this is all just my .02 cents worth.
cooner83
Senior Member
I believe that we all should be somewhat skeptical when the government is handling out our money. It is our money. I stand by what I said about recording gobbles means nothing. The devices are very expensive and the time spent on going through all of it would be better spent on something else. If you can think of any correlation between the two please let me know. If we are paying for research on decline of the population the research being conducted should be meaningful. The amount of gobbling is contingent.
buckpasser
Senior Member
After spending days of my life listening and reading about these scientific studies, some of the designs and parameters of these experiments are pretty goofy. One the other day listed a 60 acre area around each established feeder with inflated or complete nest loss due to predation on artificial nest sets, presumably due to the presence of the feeder. I’m sorry, but the feeder isn’t having an impact that big. A hen may be in trouble if she laid a clutch ten feet from a feeder, but 300 plus yards? It makes me highly doubt the ability of the technicians to place eggs as a hen turkey would. I think I’ll do my own artificial clutch surveys and post the results here.
cooner83
Senior Member
I think I listened to the same one. I believe that it my have some impact but that does seem like a large area. The toxins are pretty concerning to me because I still think that a virus or some sickness is too blame mostly for the decline. If we are dumping a ton of corn out and driving their immune system down making it harder to beat especially young turkeys. On the other hand I don't know a lot of people that feed corn all year or in the spring. I hunt deep in some WMA areas that don't have birds as they used to that are very very far from homes and private property. For me that makes it hard to point my finger at just the corn but I also can see how it could hurt some properties. I know this isn't well written just babbling...
Turkeytider
Senior Member
If it doesn`t get eaten REALLY quickly in our relatively warm, moist environment....bad news. I`ve personally seen in the laboratory what aflatoxin and rubratoxin can do to animals...particularly their livers.
I also think disease is a major player in all of this. I can't remember which member it was, but just a few years ago he found those otherwise healthy birds dead under their roost tree. Look at all of the cases of Avian Flu starting back in 07-08. I know chicken liter gets brought up, and I'm not saying there isn't something to it, but I have family that farms and spreads chicken manure on all of our fields, and those properties have had the most stable turkey populations of any areas I hunt.
cowhornedspike
Senior Member
What does it do to them long term ie, bad corn eaten in the Fall. Does it cause damage that may kill them months later or is it only a fast result?
Lots of folks say "I don't keep feeding in the Spring" and seem to think that means they are not hurting the turkey population, but is that really preventing the toxins from doing the damage anyway?
Around here it’s mostly 3 things.
Habitat habitat habitat
This area went thru a major clear cut. I’m not talking a lease. I’m talking the county on this end. Square miles. Where there’s private land with cattle pastures they still have great birds.
All this in this area came back so thick plus they sprayed herbicide on these cuts to kill everything but a pine tree.
The pines will grow and open back up. The turkey will thrive again.
Most important thing around here is Predator control. Few birds and many predator equals bad business.
This is just this area. Other areas are different and we may of experienced a disease as well. To say corn. Well corn has been in these woods Sence the 1980s and 90s. Just had to be 300 yds. Then 200 yds then it didn’t matter. Most only place corn from September to December. Only a few have year round feeders. Very few.
Habitat habitat habitat
This area went thru a major clear cut. I’m not talking a lease. I’m talking the county on this end. Square miles. Where there’s private land with cattle pastures they still have great birds.
All this in this area came back so thick plus they sprayed herbicide on these cuts to kill everything but a pine tree.
The pines will grow and open back up. The turkey will thrive again.
Most important thing around here is Predator control. Few birds and many predator equals bad business.
This is just this area. Other areas are different and we may of experienced a disease as well. To say corn. Well corn has been in these woods Sence the 1980s and 90s. Just had to be 300 yds. Then 200 yds then it didn’t matter. Most only place corn from September to December. Only a few have year round feeders. Very few.
Also around here if u pour corn or any grain on the ground. Even bird seed. Hogs will eat it up. It any got time to mold. To say corn made the explosion of hogs well. Hogs have a quick time of making more hogs. It’s what they do.
I believe as many as there is a nest full of eggs is just a snack as it walks by and they smell real good.
That’s just this area.
I believe as many as there is a nest full of eggs is just a snack as it walks by and they smell real good.
That’s just this area.
WOODIE13
2023 TURKEY CHALLENGE 1st place Team
We've had feeders here on private land for a long time.
We have a fall season, took @ 1030 birds this past fall, spring we took @ 9360.
2 bird limit, only 1 can be taken in the fall. Bearded hens are legal.
Have to be out of the woods by 1 in the spring.
1 bird a day limit.
Our problem is predators and habitat, the NPS does absolutely nothing along the New River which used to be covered up with birds
We have a fall season, took @ 1030 birds this past fall, spring we took @ 9360.
2 bird limit, only 1 can be taken in the fall. Bearded hens are legal.
Have to be out of the woods by 1 in the spring.
1 bird a day limit.
Our problem is predators and habitat, the NPS does absolutely nothing along the New River which used to be covered up with birds
fireman32
"Useless Billy" Fire Chief.
I’m still fairly new to the turkey scene, but even I have witnessed a decline in turkey sightings in my area. I travel a good bit for my second job, mostly from Houston County south to Adel, and McRae west to Ft. Gaines. Get down around Arlington and Blakely Co too. I’ve seen less and less turkeys from the road each of the last 7 years.
What I have seen is change of habitat. The turkey population decrease seems to be suffering a death of a thousand cuts.
1. Clear cuts that have been sprayed, they look like a moonscape. 1,000’s of acres with zero vegetation.
2. Solar farms using up thousands of acres of habitat.
3. Farmers spraying their No-til cover crop killing 1,000’s of acres of food.
4. Pushing back field edges to promote crop growth, shrinking small wooded habitat to even smaller sizes.
5. Disease, fertilizer is expensive. Chicken litter is one of the cheapest forms of fertilizer currently. It’s being spread in orchards and many ag fields.
(I’ve read that chicken litter may spread disease, I don’t know for sure but listed it as a possible)
6. Supplemental feeding. It helps wild hogs and coons. Boosting their population can’t help turkeys, not to mention the possibility of alpha toxins.
7. Fire ants and other nest predators.
8. Planted pines everywhere, with little to no understory.
9. Lack of prescribed fire and/or burning at the wrong time.
To increase the turkey population would take many landowners having a desire to manage their land for wildlife. Land isn’t cheap and keeping it isn’t either, so that’s gonna be a hard sale.
If you fix the habitat then nature will equal itself out.
What I have seen is change of habitat. The turkey population decrease seems to be suffering a death of a thousand cuts.
1. Clear cuts that have been sprayed, they look like a moonscape. 1,000’s of acres with zero vegetation.
2. Solar farms using up thousands of acres of habitat.
3. Farmers spraying their No-til cover crop killing 1,000’s of acres of food.
4. Pushing back field edges to promote crop growth, shrinking small wooded habitat to even smaller sizes.
5. Disease, fertilizer is expensive. Chicken litter is one of the cheapest forms of fertilizer currently. It’s being spread in orchards and many ag fields.
(I’ve read that chicken litter may spread disease, I don’t know for sure but listed it as a possible)
6. Supplemental feeding. It helps wild hogs and coons. Boosting their population can’t help turkeys, not to mention the possibility of alpha toxins.
7. Fire ants and other nest predators.
8. Planted pines everywhere, with little to no understory.
9. Lack of prescribed fire and/or burning at the wrong time.
To increase the turkey population would take many landowners having a desire to manage their land for wildlife. Land isn’t cheap and keeping it isn’t either, so that’s gonna be a hard sale.
If you fix the habitat then nature will equal itself out.
