hobbs27
Senior Member
Revelation 1:17
Welcome Guest!
Jehovah's Witnesses
- Thread starter Jody Hawk
- Start date
Revelation 1:17
hobbs27
Senior Member
Love Hebrews, that's some good stuff!
Will Galen
Member
Thank you! Sharing what we believe with others is part of what we believe Christians have been instructed to do. Note the following scripture.
1 Peter 3:15 says, But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.
Myself, I’ve been a Witness most of my 72 years so I know a lot about Jehovah’s Witnesses and what we actually believe. The thing is I’m human just like everyone else, which means I can make mistakes. I once had a nephew shoot one of my answers down.
It was many years ago and I don’t remember the particulars of our conversation anymore. But I had insisted the name of our chief magazine was The Watchtower. He replied, “The name on the front of your magazine says it’s The Watchtower announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom.� Duh . . . he was right, I was wrong. I was also embarrassed!
The point I want to make is I’m knowledgeable, and I always try and check my facts before I state something in writing, but like everyone I sometimes make mistakes. Thus anyone wanting a fast answer or an actual authoritative voice on what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe should go to our website at jw.org.
They might not have conflicting beliefs. Depending on how a question on salvation is asked I could reply yes or no. For example, if you asked me if I needed works for salvation, I would replay yes, because works are a sign of your faith which leads to salvation. However if you asked me if I could receive salvation from works alone I would say no.
There’s absolutely nothing anyone can do to merit salvation. Neither works or faith merit salvation. Salvation is a free gift of God. If mankind could have worked out our own salvation Jesus wouldn’t have had to shed his blood and die for us.
A basic explanation; In the garden of Eden God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of one particular tree or they would die. The Devil told Eve they would not die and induced her to eat of the tree. She in turn then gave some to Adam who ate it.
By breaking the only rule God had given them up to this time, Adam and Eve became sinners, meaning they were unclean in God’s sight, and died just as God said they would.
It was only after becoming sinners that Adam and Eve produced children. Since they were unclean all they could produce is unclean children. As an example it’s something like having a cake pan with a dent in it. All the cakes produced by that pan will also have dents in them.
The Bible says of mankind at Job 14:4, “Who can produce someone clean from someone unclean? No one can!� Referring to the example above, it means we, mankind had no way of fixing the dent ourselves.
Meaning in this case Adam and Eve’s sin was hereditary and we, their children, die just like they did. As Job14:4 above shows, we couldn’t do anything about our being unclean. So God provided a redeemer/savior for us. The apostle John wrote at John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.�
Romans 3:23,24 explains, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.�
So as Matthew 20:28 says “. . . the Son of man came . . . to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.�
Since Jesus never broke any of God’s law’s he never sinned, so when he was unjustly killed he still had the right to human life. He used that right in behalf of mankind, thus he gave himself as a corresponding ransom for all that obey him and thus ransomed us from sin and death. He thus replaces Adam as our life giver. Those who accept his sacrifice acknowledge him as ‘their’ savior, and show appreciation by obeying him. Doing this puts them in line for everlasting life.
However, to be in line for everlasting life we can’t be like our long ago grandparents Adam and Eve and be disobedient. For Jesus to apply the ransom in our behalf we each have to do what he tells Christians to do.
Jesus says at John 14:12, “Most truly I say to you, whoever exercises faith in me will also do the works that I do;�
Thus Jesus is saying that if we truly have faith in him, we will do the works that he did.
One more scripture that helps us on this subject is found at James the 2nd chapter. James 2:18-26 says, 18Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.� 19You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,� and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend. 24You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
What have we learned? Salvation is a free gift from God, not something one earns. God gives this free gift to those putting their faith in Christ Jesus and obeying him. Yet a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.
Thus we believe our works prove our faith which leads to salvation, but neither our works or our faith make us merit salvation, that is Gods free gift.
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As for keeping a log of our time in our ministry, everything we do is organized to accomplish what Jesus directed. How so?
In Acts 1:8 Jesus tells his apostles, “You will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.â€�
Shortly before his death Jesus says at Matthew 24:14, “This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.�
But how would this global preaching work be accomplished? Jesus left instructions on that too.
He says at Matthew 28:19, 20, “Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.�
Note the following similarities in the 3 scriptures above. Jesus was talking about the same thing, witnessing, preaching, and making disciples earth wide.
After Jesus commanded his disciples to GO and make more disciples, he added that his disciples were to teach the newly made disciples, “all the things I have commanded you.� If follows that the newly made disciples after having been taught would then have to make more disciples, and teach them everything they were taught. And then the new disciples after that would have to do the same. So Jesus set the disciple making work up to continue ad finem.
Note that this command of Jesus to go and make disciples is the duty of ALL Christians. However, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe they are the only ones actually doing it the way Jesus commanded.
Jesus said at John 13:15, “I set the pattern for you.�
So Jehovah’s Witnesses follow the pattern Jesus set when he was on earth. Luke 8:1 says of Jesus, “Shortly afterward he traveled from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the Kingdom of God. And the Twelve were with him.�
At one time Jesus sent the apostles out by 2's to preach to the people. Then later when there were more disciples he sent 70 of them out by 2's to do the same thing. See Mark 6:7 and Luke 10:1.
After Jesus death the apostles did what Jesus commanded them to do, they preached. How did they do it? Acts 5:42 (ESV) says, And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.
The apostle Paul was taught to do the same. He says at acts 20:20, “I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.�
Similarly today, Jehovah’s Witnesses preaching work is well-organized, and each congregation is given an assigned area to cover. This enables us to fulfill Jesus’ command to “preach to the people and to give a thorough witness.� Acts 10:42.
Jesus also set the example by preaching to people in public places, such as along the seashore or by a community well. (Mark 4:1; John 4:5-15)
We too engage people in conversations about the Bible wherever we can, on the streets, in business places, in parks, or over the telephone. We also witness to our neighbors, workmates, classmates, and relatives when we have an appropriate opportunity.
We have to be well organized to do the preaching work. We keep records to tell us how we are doing. For example, in 2014 Jehovah’s Witnesses spent 1,945,487,604 hours in the preaching work, almost 2 billion hours a year. We conducted 9,499,933 Bible studies with interested ones, mostly in their homes, and at a time convenient for them.
We need to keep track of what we do in the ministry so as to know how good of a job we are doing. We have the whole world to preach to, how would we know where to preach if we didn’t keep records of our ministry? Such reports may indicate that particular attention needs to be given to certain aspects of our ministry.
In my post on blood transfusions I just touched the surface on what God says about blood. I suggest taking a bible concordance and looking up all the scriptures that deal with blood. Then meditating and praying on what God says about it. You might come to our understanding of the matter.
Most Jehovah’s Witnesses grow thick skins and are used to people being argumentative, it comes from preaching to all sorts. And you did spur dialog from me, 5 pages worth. (grin)
We don’t have divisions. The Bible says not to do that.
The apostle Paul says, “Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.� (1 Corinthians 1:10)
hobbs27
Senior Member
Peter and Paul had divisions.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
You say, and I quote "Thus we believe our works prove our faith which leads to salvation, but neither our works or our faith make us merit salvation, that is Gods free gift." I actually expected this response. I wanted you to voice it without being prompted because most people don't realize this. I think it is important that the world know this. It does not bring you together, but the division is not as far
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
Thanks.
Will Galen
Member
Here's something I wrote for a another website. I was going to re-write it to use on here because I'm basically telling them some of the things Jehovah's Witnesses believe.
Including, What God promises for the Earth, Why some people go to heaven. Who selects the ones who will go to heaven? What’s the destiny of the earth?
What we were talking about was living forever, so I approached it to try and show God's way is best. I'm posting the whole thing because I think some will find that part interesting too.
I do some preaching, but I was advocating for Christians, not Jehovah's Witnesses, so I don't think anyone on here will be offended. If so tell me and I'll delete it.
Everlasting Life, by Science or by God?
Everyone has highs and lows as they go though life, yet despite the low’s people of sound mind and body would like to live forever if it were possible.
Some think science will someday make living forever possible. Right now scientists are working on a variety of things they think could make living forever possible. One way is by replacing our body parts by cloning them. That brings up mental pictures of Frankenstein, but it seems feasible except for the problem of replacing our brains and all the memories contained therein.
Another thing scientists are working on is someway to make our cells replicate perfect copies of themselves. It would be possible right now, today, to live forever if our cells would continue to make error-free copies of themselves. However, after we get so old our cells start making imperfect copies, and this degradation continues until our bodies can no longer fight off all the things that can kill us.
This following isn’t at all how it actually works, it’s just a simplistic illustration of how our cell replacement process works.
Picture a cell as looking like a ladder, with one half of the ladder painted white from top to bottom, and the other half painted black. After a period of time the white half dies leaving just the black half, the black half then grows a new white half and lives on for a period of time. The black half then dies leaving the white half and the white half grows a new black half and it lives on for a period of time before it too dies, etc.
The only thing preventing this process from going on forever is the bottom of the ladder, it’s feet. The feet wear away over time, getting shorter and shorter until the ladder itself starts wearing away. The ladder then starts making imperfect copies of itself with more and more degradation.
In real life, once the cell can’t reproduce perfect copies of itself, it’s just a matter of time until we die. Scientists are working on ways to keep the feet of the ladder, in actually a group of moleculars called telomere chains, from wearing away. If they could do that, living forever would be theoretically possible.
Consider though what would happen if there was a scientific breakthrough wherein say a drug was found that would coat the telomere chains with a substance so they wouldn’t wear away, thus as long as we took this drug periodically our cells could continue replacing themselves with perfect copies forever.
Such a breakthrough wouldn’t reverse the aging process, it would just stop it, it wouldn’t make a person younger, it would just freeze them at whatever age they were when they first started taking the drug.
There would be the possibility that the drug wouldn’t work on everyone. For example, say your telomere chains have already been wore away, what then? Maybe the drug just wouldn’t work on you so you would continue to age.
However, regardless of whether the drug worked on everyone or not, all it would really do at least initially, is add to mankind’s problems.
How so? The first problem to pop up would undoubtedly be one of greed. Whoever patented this drug would no doubt price it out of the common peoples reach. Only the rich and powerful would initially be able to receive it.
The thought of the rich and powerful living forever while they and their loved ones continued to die probably wouldn’t be tolerated by the masses for long, if at all. If wiser heads didn’t prevail quickly, the result would probably be complete anarchy. Maybe for once though those in power would realize from the start that everyone would have to be able to afford this drug or chaos would ensue.
However even if the possibility of chaos were dodged, so many people living forever would quickly create another problem. The earth doesn’t have infinite resources, it can only support so much life. The result would be that the overcrowding of the earth would accelerate.
Lets say to get around the population problem they made it a law that you first had to undergo sterilization so you couldn’t have children before you could have the drug. Most people probably wouldn’t like that, but would see the sense of it and go along with it. However, being able to live forever wouldn’t solve man-kinds other problems like racial hatred, greed, crime, terrorism and war etc.
For instance, what good would being able to live forever do you if terrorists flew a plane into the building where you worked, and your only two choices were to burn to death or jump to your death? Or how about some druggie stabbing you in the heart for your money so he could buy more drugs? We could still catch disease and die, we could still starve to death. We could still get so depressed that we commit suicide. Being able to live forever as things are now wouldn’t mean a better life, just a longer life.
What God Promises
On the other hand contrast what kind of life God promises to go along with his promise of everlasting life. And this promise isn’t just to the living, he promises that his son Christ Jesus will resurrect all those in the memorial tombs to life again.
Here are just some of God’s promises:
Revelation 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.”
Micah 4:4, And they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making [them] tremble; . . .
Psalm 46:9, He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; . . .
Isaiah 2:4, And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.
Psalm 72:16, There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; On the top of the mountains there will be an overflow. His fruit will be as in Leba·non, And those who are from the city will blossom like the vegetation of the earth.
Hosea 2:18, And for them I shall certainly conclude a covenant in that day in connection with the wild beast of the field and with the flying creature of the heavens and the creeping thing of the ground, and the bow and the sword and war I shall break out of the land, and I will make them lie down in security.
Isaiah 11:6-9, And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.
Isaiah 65:21-23, And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them.
Isaiah 33:24, And no resident will say: “I am sick.” The people that are dwelling in [the land] will be those pardoned for their error.
Job 33:25, Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.
(Isaiah 35:6-7) At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness. For in the wilderness waters will have burst out, and torrents in the desert plain. 7And the heat-parched ground will have become as a reedy pool, and the thirsty ground as springs of water. In the abiding place of jackals, a resting-place for [them], there will be green grass with reeds and papyrus plants.
Can you see the difference in the quality of life God promises, and what we would have if science made it possible to live forever?
As for the earth running out of room for people to live via an ever growing population, God revealed his plan to prevent that to Adam and Eve right from the start. At Genesis 1:28, God told Adam and Eve, “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”
Note that God told Adam and Eve to, “become many and fill the earth.” This rules out mankind overpopulating the earth. When you fill a glass with water to drink you fill it to a certain point and then quit filling it. This means that whenever the earth reached a certain capacity to support life, there would be no more children being conceived. Whether this would mean mankind will have to abstain from sex, or that God will just fix mankind so no more children can be born, the bible doesn’t say. That’s something you will have to be there to find out. We just perceive from reading Genesis 1:28, that the earth won’t suffer from a population problem.
Not only will God resurrect our loved ones, or us if we die, he promises there will eventually be no more death, and we will return to our youthful vigor. We won’t toil for nothing, we’ll work for ourselves and enjoy our own produce. There will be plenty to eat for everyone. The animals will all be friendly and won’t harm us or our children that are born before the earth has reached capacity.
This no doubt sounds to some like a ‘too good to be true fairy tale,’ but this is what would have eventually happened if Adam and Eve would have proved faithful. And it’s still what God plans to do with the earth.
Think back to what he did for Adam and Eve without their asking.
He not only created each of them but he gave them a perfect environment to live in, a variety of different foods to eat, an engaging work to do, and the possibility of living forever. Plus he gave them what each of them no doubt thought was a beautiful mate.
He gave them all that and what did he require? Just that they not eat of one tree of the garden to show their obedience. Can’t you see what a loving God our creator is?
As for living forever getting boring, 1 Corinthians 2:9 says, . . .“Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him. . .”
I repeat, “can’t you see what a loving God our creator is? “
The Choice
Which of the two possible scenarios would you prefer living in? The one you actually live in now, one that hopes science finds a way to make life longer, but doesn’t make your life different, or better, and one that even with the possibility of living forever wouldn’t guarantee you even living until the next day.
Or would you prefer to live under God’s rulership, one that guarantees that all pain, sorrow, sickness, and death will be done away with, a happy life with an endless future of continuing happiness?
We have a simple choice, just as simple as the choice put before Adam and Eve, the choice of obeying our creator and thus living forever, or doing whatever we want to do for however long we have left to live.
The Bible says at Proverbs 11:19, “The one firmly standing for righteousness is in line for life, but the one chasing after what is bad is in line for his own death.”
How do you stand up for righteousness? You learn what God’s will is, then you do it. The Bible says at John 17:3, “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”
Where do you get that knowledge? From the book God inspired to be written, the Bible.
You start by reading it and applying it to your life. For instant, when you read that God hates a liar, you quit lying and always tell the truth. When you read that God dislikes gluttony, you quit overeating. It’s as simple as applying scriptures to yourself and making any needed changes.
-----------------------------
This is long so I'm going to break it into two parts.
Next I’m going to address what some are thinking, that being, “Good people go to heaven, they don’t live on the earth.”
The Bible of course tells us that some of mankind will join Christ Jesus in heaven, but it also shows that “. . . the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.” Psalms 37:11.
Including, What God promises for the Earth, Why some people go to heaven. Who selects the ones who will go to heaven? What’s the destiny of the earth?
What we were talking about was living forever, so I approached it to try and show God's way is best. I'm posting the whole thing because I think some will find that part interesting too.
I do some preaching, but I was advocating for Christians, not Jehovah's Witnesses, so I don't think anyone on here will be offended. If so tell me and I'll delete it.
Everlasting Life, by Science or by God?
Everyone has highs and lows as they go though life, yet despite the low’s people of sound mind and body would like to live forever if it were possible.
Some think science will someday make living forever possible. Right now scientists are working on a variety of things they think could make living forever possible. One way is by replacing our body parts by cloning them. That brings up mental pictures of Frankenstein, but it seems feasible except for the problem of replacing our brains and all the memories contained therein.
Another thing scientists are working on is someway to make our cells replicate perfect copies of themselves. It would be possible right now, today, to live forever if our cells would continue to make error-free copies of themselves. However, after we get so old our cells start making imperfect copies, and this degradation continues until our bodies can no longer fight off all the things that can kill us.
This following isn’t at all how it actually works, it’s just a simplistic illustration of how our cell replacement process works.
Picture a cell as looking like a ladder, with one half of the ladder painted white from top to bottom, and the other half painted black. After a period of time the white half dies leaving just the black half, the black half then grows a new white half and lives on for a period of time. The black half then dies leaving the white half and the white half grows a new black half and it lives on for a period of time before it too dies, etc.
The only thing preventing this process from going on forever is the bottom of the ladder, it’s feet. The feet wear away over time, getting shorter and shorter until the ladder itself starts wearing away. The ladder then starts making imperfect copies of itself with more and more degradation.
In real life, once the cell can’t reproduce perfect copies of itself, it’s just a matter of time until we die. Scientists are working on ways to keep the feet of the ladder, in actually a group of moleculars called telomere chains, from wearing away. If they could do that, living forever would be theoretically possible.
Consider though what would happen if there was a scientific breakthrough wherein say a drug was found that would coat the telomere chains with a substance so they wouldn’t wear away, thus as long as we took this drug periodically our cells could continue replacing themselves with perfect copies forever.
Such a breakthrough wouldn’t reverse the aging process, it would just stop it, it wouldn’t make a person younger, it would just freeze them at whatever age they were when they first started taking the drug.
There would be the possibility that the drug wouldn’t work on everyone. For example, say your telomere chains have already been wore away, what then? Maybe the drug just wouldn’t work on you so you would continue to age.
However, regardless of whether the drug worked on everyone or not, all it would really do at least initially, is add to mankind’s problems.
How so? The first problem to pop up would undoubtedly be one of greed. Whoever patented this drug would no doubt price it out of the common peoples reach. Only the rich and powerful would initially be able to receive it.
The thought of the rich and powerful living forever while they and their loved ones continued to die probably wouldn’t be tolerated by the masses for long, if at all. If wiser heads didn’t prevail quickly, the result would probably be complete anarchy. Maybe for once though those in power would realize from the start that everyone would have to be able to afford this drug or chaos would ensue.
However even if the possibility of chaos were dodged, so many people living forever would quickly create another problem. The earth doesn’t have infinite resources, it can only support so much life. The result would be that the overcrowding of the earth would accelerate.
Lets say to get around the population problem they made it a law that you first had to undergo sterilization so you couldn’t have children before you could have the drug. Most people probably wouldn’t like that, but would see the sense of it and go along with it. However, being able to live forever wouldn’t solve man-kinds other problems like racial hatred, greed, crime, terrorism and war etc.
For instance, what good would being able to live forever do you if terrorists flew a plane into the building where you worked, and your only two choices were to burn to death or jump to your death? Or how about some druggie stabbing you in the heart for your money so he could buy more drugs? We could still catch disease and die, we could still starve to death. We could still get so depressed that we commit suicide. Being able to live forever as things are now wouldn’t mean a better life, just a longer life.
What God Promises
On the other hand contrast what kind of life God promises to go along with his promise of everlasting life. And this promise isn’t just to the living, he promises that his son Christ Jesus will resurrect all those in the memorial tombs to life again.
Here are just some of God’s promises:
Revelation 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.”
Micah 4:4, And they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making [them] tremble; . . .
Psalm 46:9, He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; . . .
Isaiah 2:4, And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.
Psalm 72:16, There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; On the top of the mountains there will be an overflow. His fruit will be as in Leba·non, And those who are from the city will blossom like the vegetation of the earth.
Hosea 2:18, And for them I shall certainly conclude a covenant in that day in connection with the wild beast of the field and with the flying creature of the heavens and the creeping thing of the ground, and the bow and the sword and war I shall break out of the land, and I will make them lie down in security.
Isaiah 11:6-9, And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.
Isaiah 65:21-23, And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage. 22They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. 23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them.
Isaiah 33:24, And no resident will say: “I am sick.” The people that are dwelling in [the land] will be those pardoned for their error.
Job 33:25, Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.
(Isaiah 35:6-7) At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness. For in the wilderness waters will have burst out, and torrents in the desert plain. 7And the heat-parched ground will have become as a reedy pool, and the thirsty ground as springs of water. In the abiding place of jackals, a resting-place for [them], there will be green grass with reeds and papyrus plants.
Can you see the difference in the quality of life God promises, and what we would have if science made it possible to live forever?
As for the earth running out of room for people to live via an ever growing population, God revealed his plan to prevent that to Adam and Eve right from the start. At Genesis 1:28, God told Adam and Eve, “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”
Note that God told Adam and Eve to, “become many and fill the earth.” This rules out mankind overpopulating the earth. When you fill a glass with water to drink you fill it to a certain point and then quit filling it. This means that whenever the earth reached a certain capacity to support life, there would be no more children being conceived. Whether this would mean mankind will have to abstain from sex, or that God will just fix mankind so no more children can be born, the bible doesn’t say. That’s something you will have to be there to find out. We just perceive from reading Genesis 1:28, that the earth won’t suffer from a population problem.
Not only will God resurrect our loved ones, or us if we die, he promises there will eventually be no more death, and we will return to our youthful vigor. We won’t toil for nothing, we’ll work for ourselves and enjoy our own produce. There will be plenty to eat for everyone. The animals will all be friendly and won’t harm us or our children that are born before the earth has reached capacity.
This no doubt sounds to some like a ‘too good to be true fairy tale,’ but this is what would have eventually happened if Adam and Eve would have proved faithful. And it’s still what God plans to do with the earth.
Think back to what he did for Adam and Eve without their asking.
He not only created each of them but he gave them a perfect environment to live in, a variety of different foods to eat, an engaging work to do, and the possibility of living forever. Plus he gave them what each of them no doubt thought was a beautiful mate.
He gave them all that and what did he require? Just that they not eat of one tree of the garden to show their obedience. Can’t you see what a loving God our creator is?
As for living forever getting boring, 1 Corinthians 2:9 says, . . .“Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him. . .”
I repeat, “can’t you see what a loving God our creator is? “
The Choice
Which of the two possible scenarios would you prefer living in? The one you actually live in now, one that hopes science finds a way to make life longer, but doesn’t make your life different, or better, and one that even with the possibility of living forever wouldn’t guarantee you even living until the next day.
Or would you prefer to live under God’s rulership, one that guarantees that all pain, sorrow, sickness, and death will be done away with, a happy life with an endless future of continuing happiness?
We have a simple choice, just as simple as the choice put before Adam and Eve, the choice of obeying our creator and thus living forever, or doing whatever we want to do for however long we have left to live.
The Bible says at Proverbs 11:19, “The one firmly standing for righteousness is in line for life, but the one chasing after what is bad is in line for his own death.”
How do you stand up for righteousness? You learn what God’s will is, then you do it. The Bible says at John 17:3, “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”
Where do you get that knowledge? From the book God inspired to be written, the Bible.
You start by reading it and applying it to your life. For instant, when you read that God hates a liar, you quit lying and always tell the truth. When you read that God dislikes gluttony, you quit overeating. It’s as simple as applying scriptures to yourself and making any needed changes.
-----------------------------
This is long so I'm going to break it into two parts.
Next I’m going to address what some are thinking, that being, “Good people go to heaven, they don’t live on the earth.”
The Bible of course tells us that some of mankind will join Christ Jesus in heaven, but it also shows that “. . . the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.” Psalms 37:11.
hobbs27
Senior Member
As a child , my best friend and neighbor had JW parents. He was raised not ever having a Christmas tree or Christmas presents.
He always came down to my house the day after Christmas to play with my new toys, I never knew until later why he didn't get anything.
Looking back on it, it must have been a very sad childhood , growing up like that, not allowed to participate in a Christian celebration of the birth of Christ.
It hurts me to this day, if I had just known more then, I could have given him something in secret that his parents didn't know about so he too could enjoy the gift of giving and receiving in celebration of the birth of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
He always came down to my house the day after Christmas to play with my new toys, I never knew until later why he didn't get anything.
Looking back on it, it must have been a very sad childhood , growing up like that, not allowed to participate in a Christian celebration of the birth of Christ.
It hurts me to this day, if I had just known more then, I could have given him something in secret that his parents didn't know about so he too could enjoy the gift of giving and receiving in celebration of the birth of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
Will Galen
Member
Why some people go to heaven.
Jesus at John 14:2,3 said, “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.”
Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. Furthermore the Bible tells us what they will be doing there.
Revelation 3:21 has Jesus saying, To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Revelation 5:9-10 says of Jesus, . . . with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”
Jesus’ apostle to the nations, the apostle Paul referred to Christians as ruling at 1 Corinthians 4:8, where some early Christians were evidently seeking undue prominence in the congregation, because he says to them, 8. . . “YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.”
The Apostle Paul again referred to Christians ruling as Kings at 2 Timothy 2:12, which says, “ . . . if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us; “
Another scripture, 1 Cor. 6:2 referring to the apostles and other early Christians, says, “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”
So we see that those who go to heaven do so to rule as Kings over the earth and they, along with Jesus will actually judge the world, obviously meaning the world of mankind. Which means there will be people on the earth to judge.
Who selects the ones who will go to heaven?
2 Thess. 2:13,14: “We are obligated to thank God always for you, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected you from the beginning for salvation by sanctifying you with spirit and by your faith in the truth. To this very destiny he called you through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Notice the one’s God selects acquire the same glory as Jesus Christ. These are the one’s that will rule with him.
Obviously you don’t need as many rulers as subjects. Thus the majority of mankind will live on the earth and fulfill God’s original purpose that he gave to Adam and Eve. Genesis 1:28 says, “Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”
The Bible shows that the rebellion in Eden didn’t alter God’s plans. Isaiah 45:18 tells us that 18. . . God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, . . . did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: . . .”
Ten verses later at Isaiah 55:11 God says of his plans, 11so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.
So the above scriptures show that God still plans to have the earth filled with humans whose job will be to take care of it. Thus we can understand when scriptures say the following.
Psalm 37:9-11 . . .For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth.
10And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
Psalm 37:29, The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.
Psalm 104:5, He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.
Psalm 119:90, Your faithfulness is for generation after generation. You have solidly fixed the earth, that it may keep standing.
What’s the destiny of the earth?
But what about the scriptures that say the earth will be destroyed? And the ones that say there will be a new earth? Don’t they conflict with scriptures that say the earth will never be made to totter?
Since all Bible scriptures are in harmony they obviously conflict unless you discern the right interpretation. In this case however what the Bible says doesn’t need interpretation. Note that 2 Peter says the earth was destroyed once before.
Second Peter 3:3-7 says, 3For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? [Speaking of Jesus’ coming again] Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
5For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. 7But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.
Notice other Bible translations say the same thing.
2 Peter 3:6, New International Version
By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
2 Peter 3:6, New Living Translation
Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.
2 Peter 3:6, New American Standard Bible
through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
2 Peter 3:6, International Standard Version
by which the world at that time was deluged with water and destroyed.
2 Peter 3:6, Aramaic Bible in Plain English
By which the world which then was, lay in water and was destroyed.
Notice it says the world of that time was destroyed. Then it says in verse 7 "But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men."
Verse 7 shows us that what is going to be destroyed is ungodly men.
What does it mean though when it says the, “heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire?”
To paraphrase The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong, In prophetic language, the heavens signify the ruling powers while the earth pictures those being ruled over.
In prophecy 'heaven and earth' also refer to mankind, just different ranks.
As for being stored up for fire, the Bible sometimes uses fire as a symbol that things are to be cleansed or have been cleansed or atoned for. For example Isaiah 6:6,7 says, ". . . one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand there was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs off the altar. And he proceeded to touch my mouth and to say: ‘Look! This has touched your lips, and your error has departed and your sin itself is atoned for.’
So once the ungodly are done away with it would be like everything was burnt away leaving a new or cleansed earth.
So we see the earth won’t actually be destroyed, just as it wasn’t actually destroyed in Noah’s day. Only the ungodly will be destroyed. Meaning those who don’t obey God and his son Jesus.
Remember too the scripture we read above at John 14:2,3 where Jesus promised his apostles, “In the house of my Father there are many abodes, and he Jesus was going there to make a place for them. Would it make sense for him to promise his apostles a place to live if God was going to destroy heaven? Of course not.
And it makes no sense for God to destroy the physical heavens with fire either. One, the sun and stars are already on fire. And two why destroy the sun, moon, and stars just to get rid of ungodly men on earth?
Think, if you owned an apartment building and some people were living there according to your rules and others were causing trouble and destroying things, would you destroy your whole apartment to get rid of them? You would just evict the trouble makers wouldn’t you.
What about scriptures that refer to a new heavens and a new earth?
2 Peter 3:13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
Isaiah 65:17 “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.
Recall what I paraphrased from The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong? The heavens signify those ruling, the earth signify's those being ruled over.
The new heavens would be Christ Jesus and those ruling with him. And the new earth would be those who are obedient to God and Jesus, but are not chosen for rulership.
There’s more scriptures on this, but this is the general outline that I wanted to present to show that people would be living on the earth in the paradise conditions reported in the first post.
One more scripture. In the last chapter of Revelation, verse 5 says, “The One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’ Also, he says, . . . ‘These words are faithful and true.’ ”
Notice in that last scripture it says, “I am making all things new.” Meaning he’s making all current things new, not that he is constructing all new things.
God’s promise to give obedient mankind everlasting life, both in the heavens and on the earth will come to fulfillment. "The words in the Bible are faithful and true."
Jesus at John 14:2,3 said, “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.”
Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. Furthermore the Bible tells us what they will be doing there.
Revelation 3:21 has Jesus saying, To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Revelation 5:9-10 says of Jesus, . . . with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”
Jesus’ apostle to the nations, the apostle Paul referred to Christians as ruling at 1 Corinthians 4:8, where some early Christians were evidently seeking undue prominence in the congregation, because he says to them, 8. . . “YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.”
The Apostle Paul again referred to Christians ruling as Kings at 2 Timothy 2:12, which says, “ . . . if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us; “
Another scripture, 1 Cor. 6:2 referring to the apostles and other early Christians, says, “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”
So we see that those who go to heaven do so to rule as Kings over the earth and they, along with Jesus will actually judge the world, obviously meaning the world of mankind. Which means there will be people on the earth to judge.
Who selects the ones who will go to heaven?
2 Thess. 2:13,14: “We are obligated to thank God always for you, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected you from the beginning for salvation by sanctifying you with spirit and by your faith in the truth. To this very destiny he called you through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Notice the one’s God selects acquire the same glory as Jesus Christ. These are the one’s that will rule with him.
Obviously you don’t need as many rulers as subjects. Thus the majority of mankind will live on the earth and fulfill God’s original purpose that he gave to Adam and Eve. Genesis 1:28 says, “Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”
The Bible shows that the rebellion in Eden didn’t alter God’s plans. Isaiah 45:18 tells us that 18. . . God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, . . . did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: . . .”
Ten verses later at Isaiah 55:11 God says of his plans, 11so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.
So the above scriptures show that God still plans to have the earth filled with humans whose job will be to take care of it. Thus we can understand when scriptures say the following.
Psalm 37:9-11 . . .For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth.
10And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
Psalm 37:29, The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.
Psalm 104:5, He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.
Psalm 119:90, Your faithfulness is for generation after generation. You have solidly fixed the earth, that it may keep standing.
What’s the destiny of the earth?
But what about the scriptures that say the earth will be destroyed? And the ones that say there will be a new earth? Don’t they conflict with scriptures that say the earth will never be made to totter?
Since all Bible scriptures are in harmony they obviously conflict unless you discern the right interpretation. In this case however what the Bible says doesn’t need interpretation. Note that 2 Peter says the earth was destroyed once before.
Second Peter 3:3-7 says, 3For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? [Speaking of Jesus’ coming again] Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
5For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. 7But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.
Notice other Bible translations say the same thing.
2 Peter 3:6, New International Version
By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
2 Peter 3:6, New Living Translation
Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.
2 Peter 3:6, New American Standard Bible
through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
2 Peter 3:6, International Standard Version
by which the world at that time was deluged with water and destroyed.
2 Peter 3:6, Aramaic Bible in Plain English
By which the world which then was, lay in water and was destroyed.
Notice it says the world of that time was destroyed. Then it says in verse 7 "But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men."
Verse 7 shows us that what is going to be destroyed is ungodly men.
What does it mean though when it says the, “heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire?”
To paraphrase The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong, In prophetic language, the heavens signify the ruling powers while the earth pictures those being ruled over.
In prophecy 'heaven and earth' also refer to mankind, just different ranks.
As for being stored up for fire, the Bible sometimes uses fire as a symbol that things are to be cleansed or have been cleansed or atoned for. For example Isaiah 6:6,7 says, ". . . one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand there was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs off the altar. And he proceeded to touch my mouth and to say: ‘Look! This has touched your lips, and your error has departed and your sin itself is atoned for.’
So once the ungodly are done away with it would be like everything was burnt away leaving a new or cleansed earth.
So we see the earth won’t actually be destroyed, just as it wasn’t actually destroyed in Noah’s day. Only the ungodly will be destroyed. Meaning those who don’t obey God and his son Jesus.
Remember too the scripture we read above at John 14:2,3 where Jesus promised his apostles, “In the house of my Father there are many abodes, and he Jesus was going there to make a place for them. Would it make sense for him to promise his apostles a place to live if God was going to destroy heaven? Of course not.
And it makes no sense for God to destroy the physical heavens with fire either. One, the sun and stars are already on fire. And two why destroy the sun, moon, and stars just to get rid of ungodly men on earth?
Think, if you owned an apartment building and some people were living there according to your rules and others were causing trouble and destroying things, would you destroy your whole apartment to get rid of them? You would just evict the trouble makers wouldn’t you.
What about scriptures that refer to a new heavens and a new earth?
2 Peter 3:13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
Isaiah 65:17 “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.
Recall what I paraphrased from The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong? The heavens signify those ruling, the earth signify's those being ruled over.
The new heavens would be Christ Jesus and those ruling with him. And the new earth would be those who are obedient to God and Jesus, but are not chosen for rulership.
There’s more scriptures on this, but this is the general outline that I wanted to present to show that people would be living on the earth in the paradise conditions reported in the first post.
One more scripture. In the last chapter of Revelation, verse 5 says, “The One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’ Also, he says, . . . ‘These words are faithful and true.’ ”
Notice in that last scripture it says, “I am making all things new.” Meaning he’s making all current things new, not that he is constructing all new things.
God’s promise to give obedient mankind everlasting life, both in the heavens and on the earth will come to fulfillment. "The words in the Bible are faithful and true."
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I'd like to hear more about "thy Kingdom come, on earth as it is in Heaven."
I share a belief with JW's in not believing Jesus is 1/3 of the Godhead. If I did believe I'd lean more towards Oneness than the traditional Trinitarian. I would believe Jesus is his Father before dividing God into three.
I do not believe Jesus is Michael. Maybe he is type of Michael as he is a type of Adam. In such he is the image of his Father.
We are made in God's image too.
I share a belief with JW's in not believing Jesus is 1/3 of the Godhead. If I did believe I'd lean more towards Oneness than the traditional Trinitarian. I would believe Jesus is his Father before dividing God into three.
I do not believe Jesus is Michael. Maybe he is type of Michael as he is a type of Adam. In such he is the image of his Father.
We are made in God's image too.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
That's a pretty common way of looking at salvation with the Lordship Salvation crowd. Many Christians believe in salvation by grace but there has to be some kind of "proof" that God has elected them to salvation. Usually in the form of fruits produced by the Holy Spirit. Either wholly by the Holy Spirit or lead by the Holy Spirit.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Is there any way to tie Islam into God's plan? Islam is a fast growing religion. One would think we all need to out witness them so that God's Kingdom will come on earth as it is in Heaven.
This can't come if Islam becomes the dominate religion.
This can't come if Islam becomes the dominate religion.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Hebrews 1:3-4
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I know a Baptist family that doesn't celebrate Christmas with a tree and gifts. They strictly keep it a religious holiday. I'm sure they miss the secular side of Christmas.
hobbs27
Senior Member
I'm sure they do. At least they don't have to pretend Christmas isn't happening around them.
GunnSmokeer
Senior Member
I can understand Witnesses' refusal to treat Christmas as a religious holiday, when it was not something the early church observed and in fact was created by man centuries later to dilute and co-opt a pagan winter holiday.
What I have a harder time with is their refusal to enjoy the greater Christmas season as a secular holiday, a winter holiday, a time of family gatherings and vacations from work and school, and a great opportunity to recognize important people in your life with cards and gifts.
Even IF "Christmas" was not commanded by the Lord nor even approved as a form of worship and praise, why can't Witnesses accept it as a secular holiday that is an American tradition and part of Western civilization for hundreds of years?
Rejecting Christmas seems both anti- Christian AND anti-American.
What I have a harder time with is their refusal to enjoy the greater Christmas season as a secular holiday, a winter holiday, a time of family gatherings and vacations from work and school, and a great opportunity to recognize important people in your life with cards and gifts.
Even IF "Christmas" was not commanded by the Lord nor even approved as a form of worship and praise, why can't Witnesses accept it as a secular holiday that is an American tradition and part of Western civilization for hundreds of years?
Rejecting Christmas seems both anti- Christian AND anti-American.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I would say let's move Christmas to June 17th. This is the day most likely the wise men saw a bright star.
Then we could have a Winter Solstice celebration in December with evergreen trees, yule logs, and mistletoe.
I think the problem lies with the combination of Christ's birth combined with religious rituals from other religions.
Then we could have a Winter Solstice celebration in December with evergreen trees, yule logs, and mistletoe.
I think the problem lies with the combination of Christ's birth combined with religious rituals from other religions.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
The problem an individual has of justification. Having to justify Christianity adopting Pagan rituals as a way to influence Pagans to convert. I guess one could justify it a spreading the Gospel by whatever means were necessary.
I'm sure slavery converted many to Christianity that otherwise would have never been reached.
I'm sure slavery converted many to Christianity that otherwise would have never been reached.
hobbs27
Senior Member
The argument that Christmas has Pagan roots so don't celebrate it, is the same ludicrous argument that I'm responsible for Slavery because I'm white, and I owe blacks an apology.
Christmas is a celebration of the birth of our Savior.. It's has been for many generations.
