The "empty tomb" that all Christianity revolves around? The plot thickens!

[WaltL1]

If your interpretation is correct, then IMHO this is fair & just.
If you're a bad boy, you don't get to go to the eternal party! You become worm dirt and your consciousness dies with you. There's no sense to sending Hitler to the same place as people who just have a difference in opinion on religion but are otherwise fine upstanding citizens.

Sidenote I have heard quite a few believers (not on GON forum) say that atheism is just an excuse to sin all you want with no accountability!
Yep, you got me pegged, Cletus! I can't put anything past you.
If that isn't "an argument from ignorance" I don't know what is.

Sidenote I have heard quite a few believers (not on GON forum) say that atheism is just an excuse to sin all you want with no accountability!

Have been told that here several times over the years. Will probably hear it again.

 

[bullethead]

I see your point, but I also see two people that are just standing by their convictions. The two basic worldviews (science versus faith) have two different "operating systems" to relate it to computer terms. Science operates on quicksand (but in a good way)! Allow me to explain my reasoning:

science is based on a constantly changing "truth" depending on the addition of new data and knowledge that is peer reviewed and evaluated. Science needs to have their beliefs challenged, because that's the only way to discard what turns out to be inadequate or obsolete truth. It has a goal that can never be reached until our species is gone. Religion - Christianity to be specific - has its entire canon set in stone (literally with the 10 Commandments) and cannot change. All Christians can do is reinterpret what has already been written for many centuries. God isn't giving Christianity any more information or revising current information. Christian scholars, apologetics, clergy and laymen alike have no offense, only defense in sporting terminology. Christianity - or any religion - can never be proved and the odds of proving it diminish every day as science advances.

Bottom line it does seem frustrating - bordering on unbelievable - how Christians cannot - or refuse to - admit when an aspect of their belief has been proven wrong.
But in their defense, their belief is all they have. If I have misread or offended any believers that's not my intention, this is just my 2 cents on how I see science versus religion playing out.

Facts are Facts. Not knowing them and posting is one thing. Knowing them and continuing to post the false versions goes beyond convictions.

 

[j_seph]

HOWEVER (not to be a smarty pants or anything) if God goes Old Testament and floods the world again, your house can be built on that GIANT rock in Australia and you are still toast!

LoL, I believe if one reads it will not be flood

 

[j_seph]

Facts are Facts. Not knowing them and posting is one thing. Knowing them and continuing to post the false versions goes beyond convictions.

However what are your facts? Your facts, just as my facts are based on someone else, somewhere else, at another date and time. This is you basing what you feel or believe off of someone else. No difference, other than my faith is more on the testimonies and writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul etc.
I just know that no man has yet to create something out of nothing.

 

[bullethead]

However what are your facts? Your facts, just as my facts are based on someone else, somewhere else, at another date and time. This is you basing what you feel or believe off of someone else. No difference, other than my faith is more on the testimonies and writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul etc.
I just know that no man has yet to create something out of nothing.

The links provided sources. The sources researched the writings and found the faults. These are not anti Jesus sources. Theistic and historical sources are used and their findings are backed up with examples.
It isn't just people saying what they want and hoping someone else falls for it. I really don't care if you agree with them or not but obviously you cannot discredit their findings. All I can do is inform you.

What does your comment about creating something out of nothing mean?
Has anyone claimed that a man ever has?
Other than beleivers, has anyone ever claimed there was ever a time when nothing existed?

Do you know of any man who is 400ft tall and indestructible who gets a kick out of flattening large cities with his work boots?
That is now 2 ridiculous things that you are now sure of.

 

[j_seph]

@bullethead So I assume, you see it as you are here, you die, the End

 

[bullethead]

@bullethead So I assume, you see it as you are here, you die, the End

j_seph, I would honestly like to convince myself there is more. I'd like to believe in all of the different man made possibilities to what happens after death.
I certainly do not know of anything for sure and I am not going to try to hedge by bets by choosing one or all just to cover myself.
I don't remember a thing before I was born if my soul was in some waiting room then and I don't have the slightest interest in wanting to or even thinking about living in some insane utopia for eternity. I get bored with repetitive nonsense as it is.
Sure it bums me out to realize my own mortality. If something extends my time I'll find out when it happens not console myself with fantasy beforehand.

 

[j_seph]

j_seph, I would honestly like to convince myself there is more. I'd like to believe in all of the different man made possibilities to what happens after death.
I certainly do not know of anything for sure and I am not going to try to hedge by bets by choosing one or all just to cover myself.
I don't remember a thing before I was born if my soul was in some waiting room then and I don't have the slightest interest in wanting to or even thinking about living in some insane utopia for eternity. I get bored with repetitive nonsense as it is.
Sure it bums me out to realize my own mortality. If something extends my time I'll find out when it happens not console myself with fantasy beforehand.

Maybe you can find some down time and listen

or maybe this one

.
If not oh well

 

[oldfella1962]

Facts are Facts. Not knowing them and posting is one thing. Knowing them and continuing to post the false versions goes beyond convictions.

The people posting probably don't accept that their versions are false. "The experts don't know what they are talking about" excuse might be in play here.

 

[bullethead]

Maybe you can find some down time and listen

or maybe this one

.
If not oh well

I will take the time to listen to both of those. There was a time in my life that I mostly read(pre and early stages of Internet) about experiences, people coming back from the dead, tales of heaven and an afterlife etc. Once the internet got rolling I was already into my stages of checking into what testimonies were available from followers of other religions. I was actually hoping to find some exclusiveness towards Christian testimonies compared to the others. I wanted to find that Christians were healed at greater rates than others even if not exclusively. Again, the more I dig, the more I researched OUTSIDE of biased sources and checked into equally biased sources I found that nobody had an advantage over the next and apparently all Gods and belief systems are capable of afterlifes, healings, savings, unexplainable medical turnarounds and on and on and on. The internet is full of examples of no matter which belief system a person wants to hear about.
I used to get really emotionally charged in my Christian years when hearing about such things. There was I time that I felt guilty for losing that feeling.
I have never had anyone that I knew well who passed on, friends or family, that knew me well and my current thoughts about religion that has come back to give me any sort of sign. I had literal years worth of in depth conversations with my M-I-L who was as staunch of a Christian as I've ever encountered and I am convinced that if anyone would and therefore could lay an Enlightening Wiser-Upper on me it will have been her. Coming up on 10yrs gone shortly and a dish rag that was draped over the sink ending up on the floor is not cause for me to connect any more dots than it fell no matter how much of a clean freak she was. I am looking for signs but SIGNS.

 

[bullethead]

The people posting probably don't accept that their versions are false. "The experts don't know what they are talking about" excuse might be in play here.

Suspension of facts and no wishes to look into them further because they don't want to know anything more.
I get it. It's hard.
But the constant posting of debnked material only works where similar people who think the same gather.
It doesn't fly in here no matter how many times it's tried to be used.

 

[bullethead]

Maybe you can find some down time and listen

or maybe this one

.
If not oh well

Regarding the 1st video:
I, at soon to be 53, have never done an illegal drug, never have taken anything stronger than Ibuprofen or Tylenol, never had a cigarette to my lips and have not had a cup of coffee. Been with the same woman since we are 15 and 16. Raised 3 grown Sons. Been self employed for 34 years.
I have no need to pray to want to change any of that.

If the Devil uses Hasbro OUJI boards as his portal to the earthly world he is skimping on quality and is of no concern to me.

The secular "acknowledgement" this is using is no different than someone today repeating what they've heard.
"Followers meet on a certain day to pray and worship Jesus as God"
What EXACTLY does that prove other than people doing such things? Other people meet and worship other gods....AND? Are those deities just as valid because someone speaks of their practices??? Does acknowledging a particular religions practices authenticate their God as being valid? None, not one of those outside sources saw Jesus in action and wrote about it. Some vaguely mention things they've heard, some use the wrong words such as "Chrestos" which does not mean Christ but beleivers gobble it up because it's close enough. And some are later additions inserted much later by then Church leaders to try to underhandedly change what was written (Josephus) into something he never wrote at all.

I'm positive that I wouldn't send my kids to a camp run by a former coke using acid dropping meth-head who needs zip lines to tie fun into relating with Jesus.

He, and many like him need a Good News of many sorts. Dependency isn't just about drugs but recovery usually involves replacing one Dependency with another.

*edited for spelling

 

[oldfella1962]

LoL, I believe if one reads it will not be flood

How about the mother-of-all earthquakes? God caused a small earthquake when Jesus died on the cross according to one of the four gospels, so an earthquake is still on the table in God's "smite" arsenal!

 

[bullethead]

Maybe you can find some down time and listen

or maybe this one

.
If not oh well

Half way through #2..
I am seeing a pattern between both speakers.

 

[bullethead]

Maybe you can find some down time and listen

or maybe this one

.
If not oh well

Just being honest,#2 was painful to watch and it wasn't sympathy. I had to fast fwd through the last 1/3.
I am not sure what message you wanted to portray but I beleive you and I got two completely different takes on each.

 

[oldfella1962]

I will take the time to listen to both of those. There was a time in my life that I mostly read(pre and early stages of Internet) about experiences, people coming back from the dead, tales of heaven and an afterlife etc. Once the internet got rolling I was already into my stages of checking into what testimonies were available from followers of other religions. I was actually hoping to find some exclusiveness towards Christian testimonies compared to the others. I wanted to find that Christians were healed at greater rates than others even if not exclusively. Again, the more I dig, the more I researched OUTSIDE of biased sources and checked into equally biased sources I found that nobody had an advantage over the next and apparently all Gods and belief systems are capable of afterlifes, healings, savings, unexplainable medical turnarounds and on and on and on. The internet is full of examples of no matter which belief system a person wants to hear about.
I used to get really emotionally charged in my Christian years when hearing about such things. There was I time that I felt guilty for losing that feeling.
I have never had anyone that I knew well who passed on, friends or family, that knew me well and my current thoughts about religion that has come back to give me any sort of sign. I had literal years worth of in depth conversations with my M-I-L who was as staunch of a Christian as I've ever encountered and I am convinced that if anyone would and therefore could lay an Enlightening Wiser-Upper on me it will have been her. Coming up on 10yrs gone shortly and a dish rag that was draped over the sink ending up on the floor is not cause for me to connect any more dots than it fell no matter how much of a clean freak she was. I am looking for signs but SIGNS.

Hmmm....... if she was a "clean freak" then the dish rag left on the floor would end up draped over the sink. That would mean the rag didn't just fall, it defied gravity and the rag was dutifully moved by a clean freak spirit, obviously the MIL.

Sidenote (make of this what you will) when my father-in-law died my mother-in-law, my daughter, my wife's sister and her daughter (my wife's niece) were there together in my MIL house when my FIL took his last breath. They were all gathered there because he was on hospice care and morphine, so death was coming fast. After the funeral home people took his body away, the next day the whole group of them went down grab some food and bring it back to the house. My daughter SWEARS that she witnessed the following, but I never got a chance to ask the other family members:

when they came through the door after getting their food, a family picture that had been hanging on the wall separating the living room from the kitchen was propped up against the wall on the other side of the living room, near the front door. The distance from where it was hanging to where it ended up was about fifteen feet.
Let's examine this with an open mind:

1. if the picture fell off the wall, gravity would dictate it would be underneath (or at least near) the spot where it was last hanging. If it hit the floor with enough force to bounce it fifteen feet, the glass encasing the framed picture would very likely be damaged, but the picture was intact.

2. my daughter (along with the rest of the group) was emotionally devastated so likely "everything was a blur" and her thinking/memory is unreliable.

3. it was a legit sign "from beyond the grave!" because there are perfectly natural things that science has yet to discover because they are erratic & unpredictable.

4. my daughter was outright lying.

Regardless, it's pretty freaky!

 

[bullethead]

Hmmm....... if she was a "clean freak" then the dish rag left on the floor would end up draped over the sink. That would mean the rag didn't just fall, it defied gravity and the rag was dutifully moved by a clean freak spirit, obviously the MIL.

Sidenote (make of this what you will) when my father-in-law died my mother-in-law, my daughter, my wife's sister and her daughter (my wife's niece) were there together in my MIL house when my FIL took his last breath. They were all gathered there because he was on hospice care and morphine, so death was coming fast. After the funeral home people took his body away, the next day the whole group of them went down grab some food and bring it back to the house. My daughter SWEARS that she witnessed the following, but I never got a chance to ask the other family members:

when they came through the door after getting their food, a family picture that had been hanging on the wall separating the living room from the kitchen was propped up against the wall on the other side of the living room, near the front door. The distance from where it was hanging to where it ended up was about fifteen feet.
Let's examine this with an open mind:

1. if the picture fell off the wall, gravity would dictate it would be underneath (or at least near) the spot where it was last hanging. If it hit the floor with enough force to bounce it fifteen feet, the glass encasing the framed picture would very likely be damaged, but the picture was intact.

2. my daughter (along with the rest of the group) was emotionally devastated so likely "everything was a blur" and her thinking/memory is unreliable.

3. it was a legit sign "from beyond the grave!" because there are perfectly natural things that science has yet to discover because they are erratic & unpredictable.

4. my daughter was outright lying.

Regardless, it's pretty freaky!

Agree 100% on Dish rag assessment.

If/when I die and IF I am somehow able to reach out to friends oor family to make my presence known....
Would moving a picture be the best most 100% surfire way to remove all doubt and prove anything?
I mean if I have the ability to "do" something I'd wait until a few could see it as it is happening rather than leave any doubt as to what might have happened.
Float the picture across the room as people are in the room (just using your example). Draw, "Go get the family" on a steamy bathroom mirror and continue to spell out "I am ok, I love you all, everything is even better than you can imagine, dont rush it, Ill see you all soon enough" as they all stand there watching it spell out. Personally they would know it is me because I'd spell out "Hitler tookmy bags to the room and the air-conditioning must not be working because man it is HOT here"
Basically leave no doubt.

 

[1gr8buildit]

Numerous passages where Jesus spoke of the hot places.

If it’s not for non believers what do you with this;

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dumbed.”

Believeth not = non belief. Where / what is “dumb nation” referred to in multiple places?

I had to change the spelling due to the censorship but you get my drift. Admin / Mod if that’s considered typing around the censor, I apologize and please delete.

Sometime, we should create a thread to go through this topic of the hot place. In the end, all that will remain is a parable about a man who wants to tell his brothers not to come to this place. And a verse or 2 in Revelation that I attribute to the "fallen", those once believers

 

[Spotlite]

Sometime, we should create a thread to go through this topic of the hot place. In the end, all that will remain is a parable about a man who wants to tell his brothers not to come to this place. And a verse or 2 in Revelation that I attribute to the "fallen", those once believers

I’m not positive that I’d agree that is all there is to it but I think you’re right - it’s definitely a topic that should be discussed.

And I’m not saying “I’m right” - I am saying I believe there’s more because I’ve read a lot more than that ^^^ on the topic.

 

[1gr8buildit]

Sometime, we should create a thread to go through this topic of the hot place. In the end, all that will remain is a parable about a man who wants to tell his brothers not to come to this place. And a verse or 2 in Revelation that I attribute to the "fallen", those once believers

The discussion should focus on "destroy" or eternal torment. If you look into it, you will quickly see the ambigious nature of the verses that the modern day church applies this theology. As a matter of fact, it should not even be referred to as ambigious. The verses in no way point to anything other than destruction.. The bible contrast eternal life against death. Eternal death would mean irreversible. Not death for ever and ever as if in some conscience state. Once you look at the greek words and apply what the writer was conveying, not the church of today, it becomes clear that this is a modern day invention. And it becomes apparent, once seen, that the fight for it reveals that Christians want it. But just as the eternal fallen angels, whom are eternal, what is God to do with them, since they are eternal? How about Christians whom have been deceived by the antichrist? They have fallen for the identity thief of an imposter posing as Christ after having been given eternal life? They have become one with him. There is wrath ahead for these. I hope it's not their version of he11. See rev 14-9 + for whom he11 is for. All else will be destroyed in the fire. The context of Rev is punishment for... the ones taking the mark, the prostitute, Babaylon. All one in the same. No context for unbelievers here.