The Trinity

[BanjoPicker]

They statement "they have not known the Father NOR ME" proves two persons Jn. 16:3, 5.

Christ received all power in heaven and in earth Mt. 28:18 someone had to be greater than He was to give Him that power. Who was it Jn. 14:28.

Jesus was resurrected and exalted by the Father, so He could not be the Father Eph. 1:20-23; Phil. 2:9-11; Heb. 12:2; 1 Pet. 3:22.

God made Jesus both Lord and Christ Acts 2:33-36.

Six times in Jn. 14:1-9 Jesus made it clear that He was not the Father.

2 Tim. 4:2 Preach the word be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turn unto fables.
4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the word of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
"a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15).

 

[Spotlite]

They statement "they have not known the Father NOR ME" proves two persons Jn. 16:3, 5.

Christ received all power in heaven and in earth Mt. 28:18 someone had to be greater than He was to give Him that power. Who was it Jn. 14:28.

Jesus was resurrected and exalted by the Father, so He could not be the Father Eph. 1:20-23; Phil. 2:9-11; Heb. 12:2; 1 Pet. 3:22.

God made Jesus both Lord and Christ Acts 2:33-36.

Six times in Jn. 14:1-9 Jesus made it clear that He was not the Father.

2 Tim. 4:2 Preach the word be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turn unto fables.
4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the word of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
"a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15).

Here’s the issue with separate and distinct persons, and from the chapter you just used.

“Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?”

 

[Artfuldodger]

Here’s the issue with separate and distinct persons, and from the chapter you just used.

“Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?”

But wasn't he just the Father's Spirit dwelling alongside his own spirit? Otherwise why did Jesus distinguish himself in a lot of verses. Jesus said he was doing the will of his Father. He didn't say he was the Father.

 

[Spotlite]

But wasn't he just the Father's Spirit dwelling alongside his own spirit? Otherwise why did Jesus distinguish himself in a lot of verses. Jesus said he was doing the will of his Father. He didn't say he was the Father.

Philip - “show us the Father”

“Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?”

Assumptions say it must be separate entities - Jesus can’t be on earth and in heaven at the sane time……yet He told the thief He’d see him in paradise this day……and was placed in the tomb. Assumption asked how much sense it makes for Jesus talking to Himself if He was God in the flesh. Scripture says God reconciled unto Himself.

Scripture is clear - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Dissect just those two scriptures…

Remember, great is the mystery………Trinity places limits on God per man’s ability and understanding and says “it must” because “it doesn’t make sense otherwise” Well, what logical thing happened when the Red Sea parted, or water turned into wine, or putting mud in a blind man’s eye?

Read this entire chapter:
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

If 3 separate entities exist in a coequal state then the above is a lie and so is All power in heaven and earth given to Jesus.

But to us there is but one God, the Father.
Jesus said For I came down from heaven.
Scripture says God was made fiesh and dwelt among us.

Yet we take I and the Father are one and say they must be separate entities because of the word “and” and then we place our logic on it.

God is all 3.

For your question, in spirit - yes we are all one body in spirit. But Jesus asked a very important question here - and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

 

[BanjoPicker]

Philip - “show us the Father”

“Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?”

Assumptions say it must be separate entities - Jesus can’t be on earth and in heaven at the sane time……yet He told the thief He’d see him in paradise this day……and was placed in the tomb. Assumption asked how much sense it makes for Jesus talking to Himself if He was God in the flesh. Scripture says God reconciled unto Himself.

Scripture is clear - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Dissect just those two scriptures…

Remember, great is the mystery………Trinity places limits on God per man’s ability and understanding and says “it must” because “it doesn’t make sense otherwise” Well, what logical thing happened when the Red Sea parted, or water turned into wine, or putting mud in a blind man’s eye?

Read this entire chapter:
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

If 3 separate entities exist in a coequal state then the above is a lie and so is All power in heaven and earth given to Jesus.

But to us there is but one God, the Father.
Jesus said For I came down from heaven.
Scripture says God was made fiesh and dwelt among us.

Yet we take I and the Father are one and say they must be separate entities because of the word “and” and then we place our logic on it.

God is all 3.

For your question, in spirit - yes we are all one body in spirit. But Jesus asked a very important question here - and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

Only for those that don’t know the Bible and don’t understand it they are not three in one body people don’t be deceived Search all the Scriptures I’ve posted on here and let the Holy Spirit lead you and you will see the truth stay with the subject and don’t try to make Scriptures that don’t harmonize with the subject miss lead you.

 

[BanjoPicker]

Here’s the issue with separate and distinct persons, and from the chapter you just used.

“Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?”

I think you said God the Father was not flesh and bone but here you’re trying to use Scripture saying he is if he is in Jesus that cannot be for Jesus has his own spirit and soul and human body like other persons.

 

[Spotlite]

Only for those that don’t know the Bible and don’t understand it they are not three in one body people don’t be deceived Search all the Scriptures I’ve posted on here and let the Holy Spirit lead you and you will see the truth stay with the subject and don’t try to make Scriptures that don’t harmonize with the subject miss lead you.

First - I’m not going to debate much with you Banjo because rather than discussing you choose to copy and paste.information from the WWW commentaries and take offense to anything that asks you……and
you choose to challenge what people “don’t know”

I know you’re saying this - Search all the Scriptures I’ve posted. Try to remember you’re human with beliefs just like everyone else. Never get to a point where you think you have this thing figured out.

You can’t get around this - without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

I’m ok with your opinion on this

 

[Spotlite]

I think you said God the Father was not flesh and bone but here you’re trying to use Scripture saying he is if he is in Jesus that cannot be for Jesus has his own spirit and soul and human body like other persons.

No, you’re assuming things again.

Scripture says God is a spirit. Scripture says a spirit has no fiesh and bones.

Scripture says God “manifest” in the flesh.

Scripture says we have a son….he will be the mighty God, the everlasting Father…..

Manifest means to show something……scripture says Jesus is the image of the invisible God.

The rest / what Jesus can, cannot do, etc…..

I’m not one that determines those parameters.

Philip said show us the Father,. Jesus basically said have I not been with you, and yet you know not who I am? - Just to point this out, Philip was not asking Jesus to show them Jesus. He asked Jesus to show him the Father. Jesus is telling Phillip look dude, you want to see the Father, where you been? Asleep, fishing, playing cowboys and Indians……I’ve been with you…..look right here, you don’t know who I am???

He didn’t say the Father is here in spirit, or standing over there, or here in unity…….Jesus said you have not known ME.

 

[BanjoPicker]

First - I’m not going to debate much with you Banjo because rather than discussing you choose to copy and paste.information from the WWW commentaries and take offense to anything that asks you……and
you choose to challenge what people “don’t know”

I know you’re saying this - Search all the Scriptures I’ve posted. Try to remember you’re human with beliefs just like everyone else. Never get to a point where you think you have this thing figured out.

You can’t get around this - without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

I’m ok with your opinion on this

Tell me this how many times have I come on any of your threads you posted and challenge what you said I stand for my God His Word and Son and Holy Ghost am not putting this on here for challenging anyone I doing for God that it might enlighten those who want to know more about the meaning of God’s Word maybe you see it as challenging I don’t. I will stand for the truth I followed with a church for a long time and found out it was not teaching the whole truth and it was hard to accept it but what God show me about his Work I know God lead me the right way and that’s how I will stand till He calls me from this walk of life.

 

[Spotlite]

Tell me this how many times have I come on any of your threads you posted and challenge what you said I stand for my God His Word and Son and Holy Ghost am not putting this on here for challenging anyone I doing for God that it might enlighten those who want to know more about the meaning of God’s Word maybe you see it as challenging I don’t. I will stand for the truth followed with a church for a long time and found out it was teaching the whole truth and it was hard to accept it but what God show me about his Work I know God lead me the right way and that’s how I will stand till He calls me from this walk of life.

I don’t really start threads on here but if you don’t want questions then easy fix - I won’t ask. Just continue to make your statements but that’s a boring discussion. A preacher with no congregation isn’t really spreading the Word of God.

For the rest of it - we all share the same opinion about “us”. The only difference in you and I is every time I open my Bible or listen to someone else I keep in my mind that I might learn something new.

Even though I don’t agree with it…..I learned something new the other day when I had a conversation with a Democrat representative. He too, had the mindset of just listen to me.

Sometimes I’ve learned new in a positive way.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Philip - “show us the Father”

“Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?”

Assumptions say it must be separate entities - Jesus can’t be on earth and in heaven at the sane time……yet He told the thief He’d see him in paradise this day……and was placed in the tomb. Assumption asked how much sense it makes for Jesus talking to Himself if He was God in the flesh. Scripture says God reconciled unto Himself.

Scripture is clear - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Dissect just those two scriptures…

Remember, great is the mystery………Trinity places limits on God per man’s ability and understanding and says “it must” because “it doesn’t make sense otherwise” Well, what logical thing happened when the Red Sea parted, or water turned into wine, or putting mud in a blind man’s eye?

Read this entire chapter:
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

If 3 separate entities exist in a coequal state then the above is a lie and so is All power in heaven and earth given to Jesus.

But to us there is but one God, the Father.
Jesus said For I came down from heaven.
Scripture says God was made fiesh and dwelt among us.

Yet we take I and the Father are one and say they must be separate entities because of the word “and” and then we place our logic on it.

God is all 3.

For your question, in spirit - yes we are all one body in spirit. But Jesus asked a very important question here - and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

Jesus was responding in relation that he was the image, reflection, or mirror of his Father.

Hebrews 1:3 that states, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.”

If Jesus was the Father, how could he be the "exact representation of another?" You can't be an exact representation of another because you are that person, you don't need a "representation" of yourself.

I could send my son who looks like me and thinks like me to represent me but he still isn't me. He could be in total communication with me while he is where I sent him.

 

[Spotlite]

Jesus was responding in relation that he was the image, reflection, or mirror of his Father.

Hebrews 1:3 that states, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.”

If Jesus was the Father, how could he be the "exact representation?"
I could send my son who looks like me and thinks like me to represent me but he still isn't me. He could be in total communication with me while he is where I sent him.

Being a reflective image. He definitely is that.

The issue I see is the separate / individual / having their own…..that actually conflicts the trinity diagram that says God is all 3. How can God be Jesus and the Father but those two functions be an “separate” anything of their own?

I think He’s still saying here on earth this is what you get to see, the image of the invisible God…..but look deeper Phillip, God, is the Father, God is the Son…….I am what you’re asking me to show you.

Your analogy is good but I don’t think it represents the one God in comparison. You’re comparing two individuals to a one God that has multiple manifestations.

The comparison would be your son telling you he don’t need you to be daddy today, he needs a fishing buddy to talk about girls.

Plus - He said this is who I am not who I represent.

 

[BanjoPicker]

Jesus speaks of Himself and the Spirit as two persons: If I [one person] go not away the Comforter [another person] will not come unto you, but if I depart, I will send him unto you" Jn. 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15. Jesus did not say that He would come back as the Holy Ghost, but that He would stay in Heaven and "SEND HIM UNTO YOU," as fulfilled in Acts 2:33-36. If those who believe in only one person in the Godhead are not capable of understand the most simple human language, maybe God can help them before its to late.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Jesus speaks of Himself and the Spirit as two persons: If I [one person] go not away the Comforter [another person] will not come unto you, but if I depart, I will send him unto you" Jn. 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15. Jesus did not say that He would come back as the Holy Ghost, but that He would stay in Heaven and "SEND HIM UNTO YOU," as fulfilled in Acts 2:33-36. If those who believe in only one person in the Godhead are not capable of understand the most simple human language, maybe God can help them before its to late.

It's great to hear you speaking your own thoughts. I agree with all this but what do you mean "before it's too late?" I hope you don't think one has to be a Trinitarian to gain salvation.

 

[Spotlite]

Jesus speaks of Himself and the Spirit as two persons: If I [one person] go not away the Comforter [another person] will not come unto you, but if I depart, I will send him unto you" Jn. 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15. Jesus did not say that He would come back as the Holy Ghost, but that He would stay in Heaven and "SEND HIM UNTO YOU," as fulfilled in Acts 2:33-36. If those who believe in only one person in the Godhead are not capable of understand the most simple human language, maybe God can help them before its to late.

Maybe give us some help with simple human language….break these two down and get me started in the right direction.

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

“God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”


Keep it simple:
1. Who was the child?
2. Who in the flesh preached unto the Gentiles?
3. Who’s believed the on in the Word?

I think the biggest thing is you’re saying they’re separate and distinct individuals but your doctrine says they’re all God. This is from your doctrine - they can’t be separate and distinct with their own anything if God is all 3.

 

[BanjoPicker]

It's great to hear you speaking your own thoughts. I agree with all this but what do you mean "before it's too late?" I hope you don't think one has to be a Trinitarian to gain salvation.

Nope I do not believe in once saved always saved. don't get me wrong for all sin but if they do it willingly they are lost again and not still saved if a person is really saved they going to know it and repent of right then, and not keep doing the same sins over and over if so then they are living for the devil and lost again.

 

[gordon 2]

"I and the Father are one."

Jesus said the above and my understanding of it from a rules based reading, or from a reading of communications laws or convention by which these laws govern the rules of language as to make things understandable as far as possible.

But are these "talking" and "thinking" laws as far as we can go with understandings of what is meant by the use of language? Are our signs the signs sufficient to convey what we are talking about, the thing, what we have witness?

( It would be kind of nice right now if we had a saint here that could talk to everyone about symbiotics ( theories on how human language is used, from its origins to formal expressions etc...).) I mean there might be good cause why some would be caused to pray aloud with glossolalia and others to stick to silent prayer!

When Jesus says "I and the Father are one" he is perhaps saying many things we don't as yet understand, but we can venture that there is a unity with two entities that somehow united are said to be one. I think it is convention that the interlocutors Jesus was talking to interpreted, that since for them the Father was God, the God and Father of Israel, that Jesus was understood to be identifying as somehow in spiritual identity to be exactly the God of Israel and /or of a will precisely aligned with God surpassing all other prophets and Holy men. It was understood to be blasphemous for a people that had been honed by God to worship ONE specific god only.

For us Jesus is saying two things at odds with each other. Having to make the distinction with the father as sperate with himself with language, "I and the father are" mean they both are, yet they are also "one". The two that are, in this statement, is said to be one.

The Jews in general interpreted it as , " God and I are the same." Yet a holy man perhaps like Nicodemus might be more forgiving with a different understanding of what Jesus meant: " I ( Jesus) a Jew like you and God, and so God the Father, ----are one in spirit. )

The Jews in general had it correctly I think. And so their problem was not the interpretation but their willingness to even consider it a possibility.

What we see and relate with our languages is not always what is real. I'm not much of a lawyer, but I think that in a court of law an eye witness' account has to be paired from its language that would interfere and obscure in the actual eye witness testimony. "I and the Father are one." is a sentence-statement that is hard to get on with cutting into. There is just not much there. There are relatively few rabbit holes possible to it for the mind to get into and get completely lost.

 

[BanjoPicker]

Maybe give us some help with simple human language….break these two down and get me started in the right direction.

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

“God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”


Keep it simple:
1. Who was the child?
2. Who in the flesh preached unto the Gentiles?
3. Who’s believed the on in the Word?

I think the biggest thing is you’re saying they’re separate and distinct individuals but your doctrine says they’re all God. This is from your doctrine - they can’t be separate and distinct with their own anything if God is all 3. View attachment 1296281

I believe you said that your debate is over and that is the way it is with me I will be praying for you, but I will not argue with you over it, God Bless.

 

[Spotlite]

I believe you said that your debate is over and that is the way it is with me I will be praying for you, but I will not argue with you over it, God Bless.

Lol I said I won’t debate much with you because…..

But ok.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Nope I do not believe in once saved always saved. don't get me wrong for all sin but if they do it willingly they are lost again and not still saved if a person is really saved they going to know it and repent of right then, and not keep doing the same sins over and over if so then they are living for the devil and lost again.

What in your post about "before it's too late" has anything to do with "once saved always saved?" Me nor you even mentioned that.
You said;
"If those who believe in only one person in the Godhead are not capable of understand the most simple human language, maybe God can help them before its to late."
What does that have to do with "once saved, always saved?"