"Through" Another challenge

My view is technically called a "low christology", but I say that's not a good description because my belief puts Jesus only second to God Almighty. Actually a high Christology
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
 
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Excellent verse to support the Oneness belief that the Son is the Father incarnate and not the pre-existing son persona of the Trinity belief.

"The everlasting Father" shows this. Most Trinitarians deny that Jesus is the Father.
 
Thread starter #63

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Does that not support the low Christology that I just mentioned..... Did you notice it said "mighty God". Since when was Jehovah ever called mighty God. It's always Almighty God. Jesus being second only to God Almighty can be called mighty God. Remember the NT use of "the God of this world has blinded". ..... The word God is credited to others. It's not God's personal name. God is a title. "You shall have no other God's before me". Almighty, mighty.... not a problem. Jesus is not God Almighty, he is not Jehovah, or YAHWEH. But he has become as a god. But he is not God. Jesus repeated Psalms 82:6, "ye are god's", thus verifying the use of the word god attributed to other than God Almighty. I recall another man in the OT being called god. I will need to google it to make my case.
 
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Thread starter #64

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Does that not support the low Christology that I just mentioned..... Did you notice it said "mighty God". Since when was Jehovah ever called mighty God. It's always Almighty God. Jesus being second only to God Almighty can be called mighty God. Remember the NT use of "the God of this world has blinded". ..... The word God is credited to others. It's not God's personal name. God is a title. "You shall have no other God's before me". Almighty, mighty.... not a problem. Jesus is not God Almighty, he is not Jehovah, or YAHWEH. But he has become as a god. But he is not God. Jesus repeated Psalms 82:6, "ye are god's", thus verifying the use of the word god attributed to other than God Almighty. I recall another man in the OT being called god. I will need to google it to make my case.
Also, notice than in the Trinity, you can have all three, but the three can not be each other. If the OT writer inspired or not had any idea of a Father, Son and HS...... He would have never called Jesus everlasting Father.
 
Also, notice than in the Trinity, you can have all three, but the three can not be each other. If the OT writer inspired or not had any idea of a Father, Son and HS...... He would have never called Jesus everlasting Father.
The Trinitarian formula never calls Jesus the Father. Father in scripture can mean many different things. I read on a Trinity site that says Eternal Father or Father of Eternity would be a better translation since Jesus gives us our eternal life he is the Father of Eternity.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
 
Excellent verse to support the Oneness belief that the Son is the Father incarnate and not the pre-existing son persona of the Trinity belief.

"The everlasting Father" shows this. Most Trinitarians deny that Jesus is the Father.
It's not one or the other like you are trying to label it.(Trinity vs. Oneness)
It's three being one. All three being one God.
What label do you have for someone who believes in the Oneness of the Trinity?
 
It's not one or the other like you are trying to label it.(Trinity vs. Oneness)
It's three being one. All three being one God.
What label do you have for someone who believes in the Oneness of the Trinity?
The labels aren't mine. Have you ever looked at the beliefs of Oneness Pentecostalism and their view of the Trinity? They see God as one operating in three different modes.

I think what you are calling oneness of the Trinity is really unity. The tri-unity of the one God. Where you see three personas of the one God(Tri-unity), they see God operating in three different modes but not at the same time.(Oneness)

They actually believe God the Father incarnate as the Son. So they like to use Isaiah 9:6 as proof. I'm guessing since think you are Trinitarian that you believe the pre-existing Christ(Son persona of God) incarnate as man and not the Father persona of God.

When you think about it that's a big difference. Did the one God incarnate as man or did the always eternal Son persona of the triune God incarnate as a man?
 
The labels aren't mine. Have you ever looked at the beliefs of Oneness Pentecostalism and their view of the Trinity? They see God as one operating in three different modes.

I think what you are calling oneness of the Trinity is really unity. The tri-unity of the one God. Where you see three personas of the one God(Tri-unity), they see God operating in three different modes but not at the same time.(Oneness)

They actually believe God the Father incarnate as the Son. So they like to use Isaiah 9:6 as proof. I'm guessing since think you are Trinitarian that you believe the pre-existing Christ(Son persona of God) incarnate as man and not the Father persona of God.

When you think about it that's a big difference. Did the one God incarnate as man or did the always eternal Son persona of the triune God incarnate as a man?
So, you finally decided to identify the Oneness you have been talking about these many days. Please compare that with Sabellianism. I think it will facilitate the study of the doctrine.
 
So, you finally decided to identify the Oneness you have been talking about these many days. Please compare that with Sabellianism. I think it will facilitate the study of the doctrine.
OK I'll check it out, I need a label too. I think I might be a Jehovah Mormonist or a Oneness Unitarian.
 
So, you finally decided to identify the Oneness you have been talking about these many days. Please compare that with Sabellianism. I think it will facilitate the study of the doctrine.
No that's doesn't describe me at all. That's the category Oneness Pentecostals fall into.
In all fairness to Welder, I myself do use oneness to describe God but I don't see it the way Oneness believers see it. Maybe I should take my advice to him and use the Unity of God.
But even still I don't think I see the unity or oneness of God in describing the Trinity. I don't see God as three personas or modes. In that sense I am Oneness I guess. I don't see the Father becoming Jesus in a change of modes, and I don't see Jesus as being part of the Godhead persona that incarnates either.

I just see Jesus pre-exisiting with God before his incarnation. The incarnation of Jesus, not God. I believe Jesus pre-existed with God in an out of time way maybe. Maybe as divine since his Father was divine. Maybe just by unity of God or the oneness of God.
I see a son who was subordinate to his Father before his incarnation and after his ascension.
I see God as the head of Christ for all eternity. I believe God sent his Son. I believe God is his physical and spiritual Father and thus his divinity.

I'm open for my own label. Builder had one for me. I think it was Arianism but they don't believe Jesus is deity.

From Wiki
Arians taught that the Logos was a divine being begotten by God the Father before the creation of the world, made him a medium through whom everything else was created, and that the Son of God is subordinate to God the Father.[13] A verse from Proverbs was also used: "The Lord created me at the beginning of his work" (Proverbs 8:22–25)[14]. Therefore, the Son was rather the very first and the most perfect of God's creatures, and he was made "God" only by the Father's permission and power.[15][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

I do agree that the Son is subordinate to God. I believe he may have always existed but made divine by God's permission and power.

Is it much different than the Election/predestination belief? In that belief Jesus had to pre-exist in Word and be a part of Creation because God already knew man would fall and need Jesus. It's not like Jesus was an afterthought. God didn't decide later or after the fall that he would send his Son.
So the son has had to always exist as everything was created "through" him. He has always been the reason and the plan.

So if one can see or believe the Son has always been that plan, then he would have to always exist. I don't see how this pre-existance has to make him God. Why can't he have always just existed with God?
 
Thread starter #71

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
No that's doesn't describe me at all. That's the category Oneness Pentecostals fall into.
In all fairness to Welder, I myself do use oneness to describe God but I don't see it the way Oneness believers see it. Maybe I should take my advice to him and use the Unity of God.
But even still I don't think I see the unity or oneness of God in describing the Trinity. I don't see God as three personas or modes. In that sense I am Oneness I guess. I don't see the Father becoming Jesus in a change of modes, and I don't see Jesus as being part of the Godhead persona that incarnates either.

I just see Jesus pre-exisiting with God before his incarnation. The incarnation of Jesus, not God. I believe Jesus pre-existed with God in an out of time way maybe. Maybe as divine since his Father was divine. Maybe just by unity of God or the oneness of God.
I see a son who was subordinate to his Father before his incarnation and after his ascension.
I see God as the head of Christ for all eternity. I believe God sent his Son. I believe God is his physical and spiritual Father and thus his divinity.

I'm open for my own label. Builder had one for me. I think it was Arianism but they don't believe Jesus is deity.

From Wiki
Arians taught that the Logos was a divine being begotten by God the Father before the creation of the world, made him a medium through whom everything else was created, and that the Son of God is subordinate to God the Father.[13] A verse from Proverbs was also used: "The Lord created me at the beginning of his work" (Proverbs 8:22–25)[14]. Therefore, the Son was rather the very first and the most perfect of God's creatures, and he was made "God" only by the Father's permission and power.[15][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

I do agree that the Son is subordinate to God. I believe he may have always existed but made divine by God's permission and power.

Is it much different than the Election/predestination belief? In that belief Jesus had to pre-exist in Word and be a part of Creation because God already knew man would fall and need Jesus. It's not like Jesus was an afterthought. God didn't decide later or after the fall that he would send his Son.
So the son has had to always exist as everything was created "through" him. He has always been the reason and the plan.

So if one can see or believe the Son has always been that plan, then he would have to always exist. I don't see how this pre-existance has to make him God. Why can't he have always just existed with God?
I think they did believe Jesus was diety, but lesser?????
 
Thread starter #73

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Do any of them still exist?
I don't think so, formally. It's a wonder we have any info on it because all the Arian writings were burned and any unsanctioned writing in possesion was made a capitol offense by the Nicene council. But we can clearly see what they believed based on the writings of those that opposed them. Arius believed Jesus to be God in a lesser form, quoting "the Father is greater than I". He believed him to be begotten/born from the Father, not always existing..... I think??/
 
He is self-existing and needs God's permission and power to be made divine?
Weird huh? Not that we are self existing as we were created but our existence has always been in Word. God know us before he created us.

Did the Son's subordination always exist? Did God ever call his Son his "God"? Did God ever call the Holy Spirit "God."? God sent his Son. The Father sent his Son. The Son hands over his Kingdom to God.

What kind of a relationship would one have with their Father? Why would the Son wait until he was incarnate as a man to be a subordinate Son?

Ephesians 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

The God of our Jesus even after the Ascension. Again, the God of Jesus, not "welcome back home, my Son who is God."

John 20:17
"Do not cling to Me," Jesus said, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.'"

Jesus refers to his Father as God. is God and our God. His Father and our Father. God is Father. Father is God.

Revelation 3:11-12
I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

Does the Son ever anoint, give authority, or exalt the Father?
 
He is self-existing and needs God's permission and power to be made divine?
OK, got carried away there. I can't show that Jesus who always existed needs God's permission be made divine. He was a Son who is by nature submissive to a Father. I don't see why he'd wait until he was a human to be submissive to his God.

John 7:28
Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, "Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own authority, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him,

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.

This shows that he had to become submissive to his earthly mission before the incarnation.
Jesus said I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. He didn't say "at least after my incarnation."

I just feel like the Father is God. Jesus repeated says keep my Father's commandments or the commands of my Father. The same with the Holy Spirit. Sent from the Father. Does the will of the Father.

I would agree that explaining the eternal Sonship of Jesus is hard but I don't see the Trinity belief explaining it any better. The Trinity belief looks like the easy way out of the explanation.
 
Ephesians 1:4-5
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

We were sons through Christ before creation. God appointed his
Son heir of all things. We, co-heirs with Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Father and Son relationship is even used to show us the husband and wife relationship.

John 5:26-27
The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son.
27And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man.

The Father granted and gave authority to the Son.
 
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Thread starter #79

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Weird huh? Not that we are self existing as we were created but our existence has always been in Word. God know us before he created us.

Did the Son's subordination always exist? Did God ever call his Son his "God"? Did God ever call the Holy Spirit "God."? God sent his Son. The Father sent his Son. The Son hands over his Kingdom to God.

What kind of a relationship would one have with their Father? Why would the Son wait until he was incarnate as a man to be a subordinate Son?

Ephesians 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

The God of our Jesus even after the Ascension. Again, the God of Jesus, not "welcome back home, my Son who is God."

John 20:17
"Do not cling to Me," Jesus said, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.'"

Jesus refers to his Father as God. is God and our God. His Father and our Father. God is Father. Father is God.

Revelation 3:11-12
I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

Does the Son ever anoint, give authority, or exalt the Father?
Hey Art, do you think that any of the disciples thought Jesus was God?
 
The simplicity of the doctrine always confounds those who ignore the biblical idea of God.
What about people who ignore the simplicity of the Oneness doctrine? Their biblical idea of God is "One God." They don't see why their idea confounds you.
Why do you suppose they believe what they believe and you believe what you believe? You are both God fearing individuals. You are both reading the same Bible. Why does Oneness confound you?
 
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