Why would it matter if the thief died before or after Jesus?

[Artfuldodger]

Read this the other day from the for what it's worth department;
“How does the thief on the cross fit into your theology? No baptism, no communion, no confirmation, no speaking in tongues, no mission trip, no volunteerism, and no church clothes. He couldn’t even bend his knees to pray. He didn’t say the sinner’s prayer and among other things, he was a thief. Jesus didn’t take away his pain, heal his body, or smite the scoffers. Yet it was a thief who walked into heaven the same hour as Jesus simply by believing. He had nothing more to offer other than his belief that Jesus was who he said he was. No spin from brilliant theologians. No ego or arrogance. No shiny lights, skinny jeans, or crafty words. No haze machine, donuts, or coffee in the entrance. Just a naked dying man on a cross unable to even fold his hands to pray.”

 

[Artfuldodger]

Can we freely take one fringe salvation grant and apply it to us? Jesus said the ones who didn't feed and cloth people were not his sheep. He also said we had to forgive others if we wanted his Father to forgive us.
I'm not sure the thief on the Cross is our loophole.

There will also be a resurrection of the evil or wicked, not a resurrection of the unsaved.
Yet we do know that Jesus is the only way, even before Jesus was known by the Great Commission. Even before the Pentecost. Even before Adam sinned.

 

[drhunter1]

Read this the other day from the for what it's worth department;
“How does the thief on the cross fit into your theology? No baptism, no communion, no confirmation, no speaking in tongues, no mission trip, no volunteerism, and no church clothes. He couldn’t even bend his knees to pray. He didn’t say the sinner’s prayer and among other things, he was a thief. Jesus didn’t take away his pain, heal his body, or smite the scoffers. Yet it was a thief who walked into heaven the same hour as Jesus simply by believing. He had nothing more to offer other than his belief that Jesus was who he said he was. No spin from brilliant theologians. No ego or arrogance. No shiny lights, skinny jeans, or crafty words. No haze machine, donuts, or coffee in the entrance. Just a naked dying man on a cross unable to even fold his hands to pray.”

It reminds me of that passage, can’t remember where it is, but Jesus blessed someone for giving what amounts to loose change and when someone asked him why because he gave much more, Jesus said, because she gave all she had.

 

[tell sackett]

bIs scripture true - there is no remission of sins without shedding of blood?

What are those works? If you believe in God you’ll also do the works. The old sacrificed. How were their sins set aside?

Wouldn’t just a belief in God and doing works make the shedding of Jesus’s blood a needless thing?

The work of Jesus was not done until He said it is finished.

Did you read Rom.4? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. The O.T saints were saved by faith, not works. If it is of works it is no more grace(Rom.11). Gal.3:11

 

[tell sackett]

Can we freely take one fringe salvation grant and apply it to us? Jesus said the ones who didn't feed and cloth people were not his sheep. He also said we had to forgive others if we wanted his Father to forgive us.
I'm not sure the thief on the Cross is our loophole.

There will also be a resurrection of the evil or wicked, not a resurrection of the unsaved.
Yet we do know that Jesus is the only way, even before Jesus was known by the Great Commission. Even before the Pentecost. Even before Adam sinned.

A fringe salvation? The thief was saved the same way I was: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

 

[tell sackett]

It reminds me of that passage, can’t remember where it is, but Jesus blessed someone for giving what amounts to loose change and when someone asked him why because he gave much more, Jesus said, because she gave all she had.

Mark 12:41-44

 

[gordon 2]

Read this the other day from the for what it's worth department;
“How does the thief on the cross fit into your theology? No baptism, no communion, no confirmation, no speaking in tongues, no mission trip, no volunteerism, and no church clothes. He couldn’t even bend his knees to pray. He didn’t say the sinner’s prayer and among other things, he was a thief. Jesus didn’t take away his pain, heal his body, or smite the scoffers. Yet it was a thief who walked into heaven the same hour as Jesus simply by believing. He had nothing more to offer other than his belief that Jesus was who he said he was. No spin from brilliant theologians. No ego or arrogance. No shiny lights, skinny jeans, or crafty words. No haze machine, donuts, or coffee in the entrance. Just a naked dying man on a cross unable to even fold his hands to pray.”

Maybe most of us get vetted in Paradise before we transit elsewhere and it is very different from "Heaven". Maybe "Paradise" is not "Heaven". The first Paradise had the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil in it. Maybe there is better?

 

[drhunter1]

Mark 12:41-44

Thanks. I knew someone would find it.

 

[Artfuldodger]

A fringe salvation? The thief was saved the same way I was: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

John 5:29
and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

Matthew 25:37
37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You? 40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me. 41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

James 2:21
Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

 

[Artfuldodger]

The thief also repented. He didn't have time to feed the sick(Jesus) or cloth the poor(Jesus). He may have forgiven those who trespassed against him.
He knew Jesus was from God, the King of the Jews going to his kingdom. I wonder if he knew Jesus was about to die for his sins? I doubt he knew about the Resurrection or Ascension. He may not have known about his own future resurrection.

 

[tell sackett]

John 5:29
and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

Matthew 25:37
37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You? 40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me. 41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

James 2:21
Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works. We are saved for good works(Eph.2:8-10). Our works are evidence of our faith. Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works(Ja.2:18).

 

[Madman]

Until the work was accomplished……when Jesus said it is finished………I think the thief would have fallen into the old covenant and would have needed to take a sacrificial offering to a high priest.

Yes. It would mattered.

Does God need a system or an ordinance, or a sacrament, to save us? God saves who he saves, when he chooses and how he chooses.
Genesis 15:6 “Abraham believed God and he counted it to him as righteousness.”

 

[gordon 2]

God gave Cain protection via asylum and Cain was what most would consider worst than a thief. And Moses was a murderer. And David was a murderer. And Paul would be guilty of murder in our courts of law today. Peter would have been a cop killer if Jesus had not stopped him.

To his credit the thief did not attempt to steal his way to Paradise with a home made self serving religion, he asked for it. Sometimes if you know you will not inherit Paradise, nor can you work for it, all that remains is to ask. There is no reason to believe that sin disqualifies any to answered prayer. Any stranger can be adopted by God--cause we have the proof that that's us much of the time.

 

[Spotlite]

Did you read Rom.4? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. The O.T saints were saved by faith, not works. If it is of works it is no more grace(Rom.11). Gal.3:11

I do believe it’s true - God will save who He may.

Overall, His plan must have included shedding of blood. I don’t believe works save you, I do believe that if you believe in God you’ll do the works. He said if you love Him you will keep His commandments. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Repentance is a work. Too many times people view feeding the hungry ir Any other good deed as a work and overlook repentance.

My point was somewhere in there Abraham did some works because he had faith in his God. Abraham didn’t just make a simple statement of belief.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I don't know what the arguments are, but I don't think that it would matter what would happen before or after Jesus' death, if that it the focus of argumentation.

I don't think thievery would deny anyone from Paradise before or after the cross. What was important was Jesus' declaration that he would be there with the sinner.

Are Paradise and Heaven the same "place"? Some Christians suggest it is not, I suspect it ain't.

For the way I read the question first, my reply was that if the thief did die first his legs would not have been broken.

Concerning the thief term, Luke says he was a criminal. In Greek this is the word kakourgoi, which means “evildoers”.

If the criminal was an evildoer, then he was headed to the resurrection of judgement. Yet Jesus said he would be with him in Paradise. The evildoer thus believed in Jesus. Maybe God lead him to His son. The evildoer repented.
It was sort of his "deathbed salvation" so to speak. Maybe the evildoer did have to go to Paradise and not Heaven. Maybe we all go somewhere as spirits to be with God and return to get a body later and then go to Heaven.

 

[Spotlite]

Does God need a system or an ordinance, or a sacrament, to save us? God saves who he saves, when he chooses and how he chooses.
Genesis 15:6 “Abraham believed God and he counted it to him as righteousness.”

It’s not for me to decide what God needs. Yes He does save who He saves. He is also a God of His word.

Obviously, God saw a need for the shedding of blood for remission of sins through a supreme sacrifice instead of turtle doves. Why, if simply believing was already good enough then, and good enough now?

 

[Artfuldodger]

It’s not for me to decide what God needs. Yes He does save who He saves. He is also a God of His word.

Obviously, God saw a need for the shedding of blood for remission of sins through a supreme sacrifice instead turtle doves. Why, is simply believing was already good enough then, and good enough now?

I've thought about that same thing. If just believing was good enough for Abraham and the criminal on the cross, why then was the Blood of Christ needed?

Something else I ponder is this. If faith counts as righteousness, why does John 5:29 say this;
John 5:29
and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

John didn't say those who are saved to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgement.

Can we assume our belief counts as our righteousness? Paul repeat the same concept in Romans 4. Abraham believed God.

 

[tell sackett]

What did the O.T. saints place their faith in?

 

[Artfuldodger]

I've heard folks say you have to believe in the Cross, Resurrection, and Ascension. I've heard some say you have to believe in the Virgin birth, others say you have to believe in the Trinity, etc, etc. Some even say you have to believe in eternal burning in He11.

Yet Abraham believed in God and his faith was credited as his righteousness.

 

[Artfuldodger]

What did the O.T. saints place their faith in?

God, and a promised Redeemer?