Why would it matter if the thief died before or after Jesus?

[gordon 2]

.

Concerning the thief term, Luke says he was a criminal. In Greek this is the word kakourgoi, which means “evildoers”.

If the criminal was an evildoer, then he was headed to the resurrection of judgement. Yet Jesus said he would be with him in Paradise. The evildoer thus believed in Jesus. Maybe God lead him to His son. The evildoer repented.
It was sort of his "deathbed salvation" so to speak. Maybe the evildoer did have to go to Paradise and not Heaven. Maybe we all go somewhere as spirits to be with God and return to get a body later and then go to Heaven.

Like we use the same biblical terms yet they mean different things to us maybe the Jews were the same way. If I understood correctly some believed in a cleansing place after death, similar to the Catholic purgatory. Maybe this is the context of what this is all about. The criminal was angling for purgatory and Jesus said, "I'll see you there." We don't really have enough history of what the criminal believed on this subject, but who knows?!

I always found it interesting that Moses never made it to Canaan Land, but he was present at the Transfiguration. Go figure! To my perhaps miscalculating mind something must have happened after his death to get him on a hill in Judea 3000 yrs after he was denied access to that very same place. Who knows?

 

[gordon 2]

God, and a promised Redeemer?

Yes and faith in many other things just like today by those who interpreted prophecy differently. They did for faith as we do. For some the Messiah would be another David or to be exclusively political and for others exclusively spiritual or others their faith were in things all over the place. Not unlike today.

 

[Madman]

It’s not for me to decide what God needs. Yes He does save who He saves. He is also a God of His word.

Obviously, God saw a need for the shedding of blood for remission of sins through a supreme sacrifice instead of turtle doves. Why, if simply believing was already good enough then, and good enough now?

And obviously the thief was going to be in paradise, no sacrifice, only a desire.

Not convinced Holy Scripture says that simply believing is enough, but that is for another conversation. “Faith without works, is dead.”

 

[gordon 2]

" 15Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant."

Christ died to redeem us from the transgressions committed under the first law, right?

And what was these transgressions according to Paul? His answer is:

"the sins the people had committed in ignorance." ( note that he does not say that Christ died to redeem us from all sin, but from sins committed in ignorance.)

Paul further explains what he means by targeting on " sins committed in ignorance". He implies that sins committed in ignorance are committed because under the Old Covenant individuals and so society does not have the consciousness required to avoid sin committed in ignorance.

He explains that the individuals in the Old Covenant for their blood sacrifices were unable to cleanse their conscience sufficient and so they continued with sins committed in ignorance. He says, "...because the gifts and sacrifices (blood sacrifice and others) being offered were unable to cleanse the conscience of the worshiper.

Paul implies that the blood of Christ is shed to provide for those under the New Covenant to be redeemed from their old conscience which caused them to live with "sin committed in ignorance." And more, that this new conscience was promised and that it was the salvific work of God in our Lord Jesus Christ:

Paul says, "who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God!

The way I understand Paul now in Romans 9 is that Paul understands that Christ died for the sins of the world where man does not know " what he do" because they do not have the consciousness or the conscience to know other than what they do. For their consciousness or conscience they have the souls of fallen man, that is they have the minds and hearts of Cain.

What Jesus' so God's redeeming work is, it is to give man a new consciousness and so a new heart he places in the people of the New Covenant.

Paul says that this new consciousness comes about because Christ is the perfect holy and sinless sacrifice to which man can compare and come to know as against the consciousness of the fallen world which is blind to sin and so "sin committed in ignorance". He points out that Christ consciousness is from a heavenly tabernacle from which we can discern the right consciousness so to not live with and within " sin committed in ignorance".

Forgive them for they know not what they do.

Sorry for being long winded about this, but can I suggest that we have perhaps a partly false understanding by our belief that Christ dies for our sins. ( I know this must be hard to read.)

What Christ died for was so we could have a new life by a new consciousness that was not in the capture of the original sin, caused by eating from the tree of good and evil which would make us blind to sin itself, by it the perception that good was evil and evil was good.

Paul says to me that Christ's tabernacle is in heaven, while Moses' is in the earth. So Christ provides a heart, consciousness for us that is from heaven.

The long held ideas that Christ died for our sins once and for all time due the cross, which has become the very predication of many Christians might have to be revisited if we are to understand what early Christians like Paul really understood about Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Simply Christ died on the cross so that we could know what we were doing, that once being blind, now we see and so for a new heart in the blood of Christ we are able to have eternal life and so live in the will of God.

 

[tell sackett]

Christ died for us that sinners might be reconciled to God.

 

[tell sackett]

What works can we do to accomplish what Christ couldn’t?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and_______ and you shall be saved.

 

[gordon 2]

What works can we do to accomplish what Christ couldn’t?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and_______ and you shall be saved.

Paul says that we can do works and so do as to accomplish what Christ couldn't. Paul says we do this by carrying our own crosses and so suffering and by denying our selves in our works in and by love, both in our love of God and in our love for all other human beings. Paul suffers for the sake of the Good News for the sake of the Church, and so the body of Christ.

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is the Church.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go."

 

[Artfuldodger]

" 15Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant."

Christ died to redeem us from the transgressions committed under the first law, right?

And what was these transgressions according to Paul? His answer is:

"the sins the people had committed in ignorance." ( note that he does not say that Christ died to redeem us from all sin, but from sins committed in ignorance.)

Paul further explains what he means by targeting on " sins committed in ignorance". He implies that sins committed in ignorance are committed because under the Old Covenant individuals and so society does not have the consciousness required to avoid sin committed in ignorance.

He explains that the individuals in the Old Covenant for their blood sacrifices were unable to cleanse their conscience sufficient and so they continued with sins committed in ignorance. He says, "...because the gifts and sacrifices (blood sacrifice and others) being offered were unable to cleanse the conscience of the worshiper.

Paul implies that the blood of Christ is shed to provide for those under the New Covenant to be redeemed from their old conscience which caused them to live with "sin committed in ignorance." And more, that this new conscience was promised and that it was the salvific work of God in our Lord Jesus Christ:

Paul says, "who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God!

The way I understand Paul now in Romans 9 is that Paul understands that Christ died for the sins of the world where man does not know " what he do" because they do not have the consciousness or the conscience to know other than what they do. For their consciousness or conscience they have the souls of fallen man, that is they have the minds and hearts of Cain.

What Jesus' so God's redeeming work is, it is to give man a new consciousness and so a new heart he places in the people of the New Covenant.

Paul says that this new consciousness comes about because Christ is the perfect holy and sinless sacrifice to which man can compare and come to know as against the consciousness of the fallen world which is blind to sin and so "sin committed in ignorance". He points out that Christ consciousness is from a heavenly tabernacle from which we can discern the right consciousness so to not live with and within " sin committed in ignorance".

Forgive them for they know not what they do.

Sorry for being long winded about this, but can I suggest that we have perhaps a partly false understanding by our belief that Christ dies for our sins. ( I know this must be hard to read.)

What Christ died for was so we could have a new life by a new consciousness that was not in the capture of the original sin, caused by eating from the tree of good and evil which would make us blind to sin itself, by it the perception that good was evil and evil was good.

Paul says to me that Christ's tabernacle is in heaven, while Moses' is in the earth. So Christ provides a heart, consciousness for us that is from heaven.

The long held ideas that Christ died for our sins once and for all time due the cross, which has become the very predication of many Christians might have to be revisited if we are to understand what early Christians like Paul really understood about Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Simply Christ died on the cross so that we could know what we were doing, that once being blind, now we see and so for a new heart in the blood of Christ we are able to have eternal life and so live in the will of God.

"Sins committed in ignorance." Sins committed by others who were not in that first Covenant with God?"
This is what Paul says;

Ephesians 2:12-13
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:17-19
He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

Was there a time that a whole group were without God? I think Paul is addressing the Gentiles but were the Jews not also separate from Christ just like the Gentiles?
The only difference being the Jews had God. They had hope. They had the covenants of the promise. But did they have Jesus?

It almost reads like the Jews had God but the Gentiles had to wait for the atoning blood of Christ to be grafted in after the wall of hostility came down.

 

[tell sackett]

Paul says that we can do works and so do as to accomplish what Christ couldn't. Paul says we do this by carrying our own crosses and so suffering and by denying our selves in our works in and by love, both in our love of God and in our love for all other human beings. Paul suffers for the sake of the Good News for the sake of the Church, and so the body of Christ.

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is the Church.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go."

We do these things because we are saved.

 

[tell sackett]

"Sins committed in ignorance." Sins committed by others who were not in that first Covenant with God?"
This is what Paul says;

Ephesians 2:12-13
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:17-19
He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

Was there a time that a whole group were without God? I think Paul is addressing the Gentiles but were the Jews not also separate from Christ just like the Gentiles?
The only difference being the Jews had God. They had hope. They had the covenants of the promise. But did they have Jesus?

It almost reads like the Jews had God but the Gentiles had to wait for the atoning blood of Christ to be grafted in after the wall of hostility came down.

There is none righteous, no, not one

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

 

[Artfuldodger]

There is none righteous, no, not one

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

I agree but what was Paul addressing in those passages in Ephesians about the Gentiles being separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world?
What event did Paul say brought them near?

 

[gordon 2]

"Sins committed in ignorance." Sins committed by others who were not in that first Covenant with God?"
This is what Paul says;

Ephesians 2:12-13
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:17-19
He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

Was there a time that a whole group were without God? I think Paul is addressing the Gentiles but were the Jews not also separate from Christ just like the Gentiles?
The only difference being the Jews had God. They had hope. They had the covenants of the promise. But did they have Jesus?

It almost reads like the Jews had God but the Gentiles had to wait for the atoning blood of Christ to be grafted in after the wall of hostility came down.

Paul says, if I understand correctly, those from the Mosaic Covenant were cleansed outwardly and so for Paul we are cleansed in and out so to speak. LOL

 

[gordon 2]

I agree but what was Paul addressing in those passages in Ephesians about the Gentiles being separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world?
What event did Paul say brought them near?

Paul says or means, again if I understand correctly, that the blood of the cross is the blood of a new covenant that the whole world can get in on. And so the Holy Ghost will come to the Gentiles that believe, just like it did for the Jewish believers and so get Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

If you have any amount of spiritual wits enough to know that you are being called by God when an apostle of the cross shows up and that God is offering union with all mankind in Jesus for the blood of the cross, something offered for free, and so making atonement, that is a hard offer to say "No." to.

So if an evangelist comes to your town you might what to check it out. ( And bring friends with you. ) The offer still stands don't care who you are. I don't care if the evangelist is not being perfect at what he does or that he has doctrine I find a bit hard. I have seen the Holy Spirit show up and do wonder works from the faith of the folks in the pews. "It is not the healthy who need a doctor." As a matter of fact some think they can heal themselves or take care of themselves or that prophecy for the body excludes them, and yet I have been where the Holy Spirit ministered to the body despite the stubbornness of a minister that can talk but yet not listen. Go anyway. Do not hop from an opportunity to fellowship with the Lord, because pastors' faith walk is at a different stage on the road than your's. Go to Christ if God calls you. And you will never know if he called you when you were not there to answer yes or no. Listen for the rustle of the life that is ours, to all, in the cross. It might be faint, but it will be there. And if you don't hear it the first night, go the next, and the next, and you will hear it.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Acts 13:47
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: “’I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
Through the door of Israel and Israel’s Messiah the Gentiles can be brought near to God, no longer be strangers.

The Gentiles were excluded from the covenants of promise, because they were not biologically descended from Israel.
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

It goes back to the blood thing( Cross).

In Romans 11, God darkened the eyes of Israel after electing a Remnant by grace. Romans 9 says God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. So that salvation could then go to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.
Because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Their failure meant salvation to the Gentiles.

Paul said "but now" in Ephesians. Something happened, some event. This lead to the election and conversion of Paul. God chose Paul to announce this mystery/secret. In the past it was all about Israel's covenant. After "the event" Paul says God chose a remnant by grace from Israel and hardened the rest. Thus allowing the Gentiles to be grafted in to the Commonwealth of Israel.

 

[Madman]

Christ died for us that sinners might be reconciled to God.

Christ died that God might be reconciled to man. Big difference.

 

[tell sackett]

I beg to differ. God has not, does not change. Man destroyed the fellowship.

 

[gordon 2]

Be careful that you don't have the same definition for "reconciled".


When was the fellowship destroyed? Who destroyed it?

Maybe it takes two to tango.

Man with a consciousness whereby he can know and so chose what is good and evil for which he needs to cover his shame from God is a sad way to be--to live.

God having to limit man's days for this and willingly let man get further and further away from a wholesome relationship with him is a hard thing to see and know.

Our God that made remnants for himself and drowned the rest and then is said to love the world, and so the folk that were fit for his drowning had he not promised to never again rub them out, is shocking to human psychology especially that we seem to be comforted that God cannot change, that God is predictable and safe provided we love and fear him.

Even with eternal life now we suffer the slings and arrows of the way we and God were after the fall. We are waiting on what we will be so much so that some of us are making religions on it, that eternal life is yet to come, that the kingdom will yet be and that when this will come God will still need to be our governor as when we in relationship must submit to him now from the perspective of life now!


So is our reconciliation with God due the the fact that He decided that now He so loves the world...because the Hebrew slaves decided they had had enough?

Or is it when we are made to willingly talk to God directly on the topic of why we hid from Him?

"Then Moses entered the midst of the cloud as he went up to the mountain; and Moses was on the mountain for forty days and forty nights."

"At that time Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. He fasted for forty days and forty nights and afterwards was hungry. The tempter approached and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become loaves of bread."

After the fall who was first in reconciliation? Man going up or God coming down?

 

[gordon 2]

Now more on the subject of the tread:

Why would it matter if the thief died before or after Jesus?​

By accident today I was thinking on why it was not recommended that we should toss our pearls to pigs? It seemed kind of strange to me that since piggishness was a feature of the world that Jesus accusing others of hypocrisy was himself being hypocritical after all God so loved the world that.... I mean did Jesus not cast his pearls to the world? Something was not sitting right.

So I went to the verse and worked myself backwards and forwards until I got the context perhaps right.

The very first verses in Matthew 7 are about not judging people. Basically not to do it. And then this verse pops out:

6“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

In the context of not judging people what does this verse have to do with anything?

Do not judge and do not give dogs what is sacred. ( Hum how can that work?)

And next there is this verse:

7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you

8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

Therefore we are not to judge others and we are not to give them our pearls if we have them. Then how is it that they can get with Jesus? How do ministers of Christ operate with this command to not cast their pearls. It seems to cancel the great commission? Wait!

"For everyone who asks receives." Individuals receive pearls if they are receptive to receiving. And asking would indicate they are.

If I judge that individuals are dogs and swine, which they might be, and I minister to them that they are Solomon's and not David's then by the spirit of judgement by which I judge them, they will judge me and if Christ is my pearl they will trample on Christ and perhaps do worse to me:


"Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

Instead the suggestion is that instead of directly attempting to give Christ it would be best we might declare Christ and make it know that in order to receive it is mandatory to ASK?

And so our thief on the cross asked of Jesus " When you get to your kingdom--remember me." He received far more than he asked for.

Now I must go to Peter and how he made it possible that others might be spiritually ministered to.

"And a man who was lame from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those entering the temple courts. 3When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4Peter looked directly at him, as did John. “Look at us!” said Peter. 5So the man gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. 6But Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, get up and walk!”…

Often perhaps we ask not knowing what we are really asking for or that there is something else that is much better to ask for.( I think that brother James might back me up on this.)

There is better than being lame from birth and being carried to the temple. Sometimes the charity we ask for and expect is as good as asking in tongues and receiving something miraculous, because sometimes the charity asked for is far from our imagination even. The point is to start by asking for something.

Like the thief on the cross with only hours to live expecting nothing but to be remembered or a beggar expecting money as usual it was there good fortune to ask and so be receptive of receiving. What both they received far exceeded what they asked for.
This tread is all about remembering him our thief on the cross and Christ's willingness to meet him where they were both going--- all because of asking for something.

​

 

[Artfuldodger]

I don't think the evil doer on the cross was a Gentile but looking at it from a" salvation from believing" aspect, how was he brought to know Jesus?
And from that aspect, let's move on to how the Gentiles would know Jesus.
Acts 13:47-48
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: “’I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

As it pertains to an individual, Jew or Gentile, it seems all through scripture, the only way for one to believe is to be elected or hear the Gospel.
There might have been a few Gentiles who heard and believed before the Cross but per Paul, most had not heard and thus the mystery/secret for the Gospel to go out to the Gentiles. Paul said that the Cross allowed this to happen. It took the blood of Christ happening within time for this to take place. The vast number of Gentiles didn't have the same chance that most Jews had to believe in God and his Promise. They had to actually wait for the Promise to get here.

 

[Artfuldodger]

James 21-24
Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

I think it's important that we read more than one verse or more than one passage.
Maybe the evil doer on the cross's actions were his words spoken to Jesus. As mentioned perhaps repentance is a type of work. The evil doer had no time left to perform any physical actions as mentioned by James.