Why would it matter if the thief died before or after Jesus?

[Artfuldodger]

I 've seen a few discussions on this recently. I know it's related to dying under Old or New testament, but regardless the thief was covered by the blood of Jesus.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

How soon before a new denomination is formed based on this triviality?

 

[Spotlite]

Until the work was accomplished……when Jesus said it is finished………I think the thief would have fallen into the old covenant and would have needed to take a sacrificial offering to a high priest.

Yes. It would mattered.

 

[buckpasser]

Until the work was accomplished……when Jesus said it is finished………I think the thief would have fallen into the old covenant and would have needed to take a sacrificial offering to a high priest.

Yes. It would mattered.

Do you think that Jesus just knew the order of events that would transpire that day when he said it? What I mean is, obviously if He said “today”, not “if”.

 

[Spotlite]

Do you think that Jesus just knew the order of events that would transpire that day when he said it? What I mean is, obviously if He said “today”, not “if”.

I believe He knew.

 

[drhunter1]

The Lord does as he wills and his timing is often times not of our understanding. The creator of the universe can do all things so if he decided to give forgiveness while he walked amongst them that would be up to him.

 

[tell sackett]

Until the work was accomplished……when Jesus said it is finished………I think the thief would have fallen into the old covenant and would have needed to take a sacrificial offering to a high priest.

Yes. It would mattered.

Romans 4:1-5

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

I understand that verse as it pertains to Old Testament and the New Testament. And Romans 4:1-5 as Tell Sackett mentioned.

Since that seems to refer for both the Old & New, did anything really change as far as how one received salvation?
What I'm getting at is they all believed and thus it was credited as righteousness.

The point being I guess we don't all see it that way and why I was seeing discussions on it.

 

[gordon 2]

I don't know what the arguments are, but I don't think that it would matter what would happen before or after Jesus' death, if that it the focus of argumentation.

I don't think thievery would deny anyone from Paradise before or after the cross. What was important was Jesus' declaration that he would be there with the sinner.

Are Paradise and Heaven the same "place"? Some Christians suggest it is not, I suspect it ain't.

For the way I read the question first, my reply was that if the thief did die first his legs would not have been broken.

 

[gordon 2]

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

I understand that verse as it pertains to Old Testament and the New Testament. And Romans 4:1-5 as Tell Sackett mentioned.

Since that seems to refer for both the Old & New, did anything really change as far as how one received salvation?
What I'm getting at is they all believed and thus it was credited as righteousness.

The point being I guess we don't all see it that way and why I was seeing discussions on it.

I like how you think. I will side with you. We too often assume that the salvific relationship Jews have and had with God is solely legal, principally because we see atonement as a legal fact, but atonement is due covenant which provides with at-one-ment in relationship God and man and to both covenants.

Israel is saved because of God's covenant with Israel and not by works. If Christians are saved it is due God's covenant with them and not by works. I'm betting that today Christians and so the saved die with more non repented and unforgiven sin than it was ever possible during the days of John the apostle. Never has there been more sin candy.

 

[Spotlite]

Romans 4:1-5

Is scripture true - there is no remission of sins without shedding of blood?

What are those works? If you believe in God you’ll also do the works. The old sacrificed. How were their sins set aside?

Wouldn’t just a belief in God and doing works make the shedding of Jesus’s blood a needless thing?

The work of Jesus was not done until He said it is finished.

 

[gordon 2]

What was finished is a speculation. Jesus stopped suffering bodily which suffering was due his love for the world. His suffering work to redeem the world out of love was finished. He died not for the sins of the world but for sin in the world, that...

“For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Jesus died on the cross to show us what Love is for both man and God.

And so when we sacrifice to God now, we sacrifice with Jesus' sinless body and blood made Holy by the Father's will. By the Eucharist Jesus transforms the bread and wine into his perfect sacrificial body and blood that must take us, feed us spiritually, in him so that we would know his will for us and our works for Him.

It places a fresh yet plain spin on: "“’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

and plain meaning on:

"Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."

There is something to be said about selling everything and following Christ, carrying our own cross, and loosing your life to love God as Christ did the Father.

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." We need to have communion ( common union) in the sacrifice and so the suffering of Jesus on the cross if we are to love as Christ loved and loves us. This common sacrifice is the sacrifice of our covenant with God. We seal it all by the Lord's supper.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Is scripture true - there is no remission of sins without shedding of blood?

What are those works? If you believe in God you’ll also do the works. The old sacrificed. How were their sins set aside?

Wouldn’t just a belief in God and doing works make the shedding of Jesus’s blood a needless thing?

The work of Jesus was not done until He said it is finished.

But it has to be the blood of Christ right? I think animal blood was more of a "type." Christ was slain from the foundation of the world.
If not and animal blood would do the trick then Christ could have stayed in Heaven.

 

[bullgator]

The Lord does as he wills and his timing is often times not of our understanding. The creator of the universe can do all things so if he decided to give forgiveness while he walked amongst them that would be up to him.

That’s why organized religion can’t speak or represent God.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Thinking about Jesus saying it is finished. What about the Resurrection and Ascension? True his blood was slain on the cross but he wasn't in Heaven yet for intersession of our souls.
Personally I think the Cross is more important than the other two but I've always wondered what was finished.

 

[Artfuldodger]

That’s why organized religion can’t speak or represent God.

Yeah, I don't think God has to conform to the rules and ways he sets forth for man, nature, or creation.

 

[gordon 2]

"Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."


Is the blood really about the specific remission of our sins or is it the instrument that gives life to a covenant between individual( party) and God.

Was the Old Covenant's lamb sacrifice of blood and flesh for the remission of sin? or was it a sacrifice of worship to God within the first Covenant?


"The scapegoat was a goat who took on the sins of the Israelites and was set free into the wilderness."

 

[gordon 2]

That’s why organized religion can’t speak or represent God.

All true until you find out that the Holy Spirit himself shows up in organized religion to minister to you personally and you've quit the body.

 

[Spotlite]

But it has to be the blood of Christ right? I think animal blood was more of a "type." Christ was slain from the foundation of the world.
If not and animal blood would do the trick then Christ could have stayed in Heaven.

From what I understand, yes. But, there was the acceptance of animal blood to push sins aside but there there was never any atonement for certain serious sins.

 

[drhunter1]

That’s why organized religion can’t speak or represent God.

I believe the Lord uses who he wills and his plan can go through anyone he chooses and it is not for us to say. He can save who he wants when he wants and he can put anyone he wishes through trials. His judgement is perfect.