j_seph
Senior Member
Here is a series that started yesterday at a local church in N. GA
Welcome Guest!
Once Saved Always Saved (added pt 2 post #90)
- Thread starter j_seph
- Start date
Madman
Senior Member
This is going to be interesting.
j_seph
Senior Member
Yes it will, I have respect for Will Fuller. He is a good man and a good preacher.
Madman
Senior Member
Bet this one dies a quick "death", But I would love here the arguments both ways.
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
You can save time and do a search. There is probably an entire server dedicated just to storing what has been said on this subject here. It comes up about every year or two. The arguments and justifications are the same.
Madman
Senior Member
I know, but maybe, just maybe, something new will be brought up, new friends made and old wounds healed.
Besides, I hate searching old forums.
Israel
BANNED
Before attempt was made to reduce the name of Jesus Christ as the poster child for tickets to Heaven He was preached as the rebuke to the world. (Those playing to His containing and as container of merchandise will soon know)
On the day of Pentecost Peter's preaching did not lack the very pointed call to repentance (one should ask themselves whether one believes he and the others were filled with the Holy Spirit) and the no less clear declaration of the part those to whom he preached played in all of these matters.
Some have said, to either diminish or contradict by Paul's revelation of grace, that Peter spoke blaming the Jews. That repentance's call is not meet to the gospel of grace, and is a vain attempt to assign blame for the work and therefore if responsible in blame (of the work)...holding a curious responsibility for the work.
Kind of like an arsonist who, setting a fire to the response of the fire company that discovers a house full of children being trafficked, and thence rescued might say "I did well to set that fire on the porch, for look, a house full of abused children was saved" And therefore thinks himself to some beneficence as part of their salvation.
But read again. Peter's words are plain:
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Christ's restoration of Peter in forgiveness (as no less, our own) was not in vain. Peter knew now that in God's determinate will all was purposed, yet Peter still had to, in that light, finding then no place of false claim of innocence, (for he knew all too well his intents to save his own skin)...were clearly displayed against (in contrast to) a will of One to give all His own self.
Here is where repentance is meet. The clear revelation that "I am all of like this"..."God is all of like that" and there is no more confusing that I am, or "my word", according to my will, or doing is of any effect except wickedness...and that Jesus Christ alone is the word of God to man, and every man.
"I will smite the shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered" meets "Even if they all desert you I shall not", for the man in wanting to think well of himself (and this is an incontrovertible operation) must oppose the word of God. In truth this is all of what opposes...what operates according to the need to think well of one's self.
Jesus said "How can you believe who receive glory from one another...?" It is impossible (apart from an intervention).
No Peter is not blaming the Jews, nor trying to elicit from them some ungodly sorrow...but the clear presentation of recognition. Yes...God purposes salvation...you (we all) had purposes totally opposed...we (all) have tried...to "kill life".
God is looking for truth in the inward parts...not some sort of mewling and scraping self abasing...for when we admit "I am this" "God is that" only then is the Lord Jesus revealed as the reconciliation for the two polar opposites. He alone is where the irreconcilable...is reconciled. But until a man is broken by this revelation of truth...that unbridgeable gap...what need has he of a savior, a bridge, a daysman who might lay hand to both...to bring together?
Where all righteousness meets all unrighteousness in a Person, (Jesus Christ is no mere "concept") the only person so chosen, elected, ordained, determined...that both holds (without slackening or relinquishing) to both God and man in Himself.
In some form of silly exposition (if one cares to receive it) He is what holds to both the dynamo of all positive output, and the ground...never letting go of either...never blaming God for His estate, nor letting go of man no matter how despitefully He is treated. Being reviled, he reviled not ...
Something's "gotta give" in that estate. All righteousness meeting all unrighteousness (man)...and the fuse was blown. Perfect overload. All demands of righteousness for judgment...meeting all that is in requirement of judgment. BOOM! All wrath spent...all old man...burned to a crisp. In a person. Death.
No wonder the disciples hid, were full of fear, wept, barricaded themselves in despair...how could they know...even despite their being told? Really...how could they? They saw Him die...gone...pffft, light of life...out, gone...in a tomb...cold (to them)...all that showering and bathing in light of God's presence among them...now snuffed out.
You want to talk about despair? It's one thing to lose (or believe one has lost) a dollar, it's quite another to awake to find everything...all accounts emptied, deeds once in your name transferred, all you held to your bosom as joy or security, or pleasure...gone. But those are just worldly things of taste...what the disciples had tasted was far beyond of hope, and security, joy, and a place...now moldering in a tomb.
Oh, the world didn't "miss Him" for a moment, was glad to be rid of Him, was delighted it could display His death...His seeming powerlessness over it, finally show Him as impostor (for God did not rescue Him)...man still held the ace in the hole...death to impose (at an accomplice's encouraging, the enemy of all truth) to triumph against what would be to its own rebuke.
For Jesus came preaching "Repent and believe the gospel..." What need to pay heed to what...by death imposed...showed it was no more than any other man? And a fool no less, maneuvered by what appeared his own "press"...to go too far...that he might be seen and presented close enough to a thing that it might appear rightly (with just the slightest of juggling) hung upon Him...blasphemy. Lord, but man is so very clever! How would any know...what was truly "going on?" Man was being man...and the god that man had presumed, was, to presumptuous man...showing He had nothing (obviously) at stake in this...or He would have acted.
When man is clever, there is One who shows Himself...more clever.
(Do you remember the devils asking "have you come to torment us before the time?" Do you not know they went "whew, that was close...but look...He's dead! there's more...time")
Ahhh, the wisdom of God! All found concluding to one thing. Man, devils, every principality and power that has had investment in the world to its own pleasure...and has exercised power over man to be their accomplice...
Defeated. Their investment was great, their investment was huge, their investment seemed unbreakably deep...but He went where their investment could not, would not, is all unable to follow (for theirs is only to pleasure)...He willingly went into death.
To show, in the resurrection, another...whose full investment was there made plain...and so much more exceedingly and over-abundantly able to eclipse...that it has. And makes such full triumphant show of all their poverty.
And we should know this better than they. And we shall.
On the day of Pentecost Peter's preaching did not lack the very pointed call to repentance (one should ask themselves whether one believes he and the others were filled with the Holy Spirit) and the no less clear declaration of the part those to whom he preached played in all of these matters.
Some have said, to either diminish or contradict by Paul's revelation of grace, that Peter spoke blaming the Jews. That repentance's call is not meet to the gospel of grace, and is a vain attempt to assign blame for the work and therefore if responsible in blame (of the work)...holding a curious responsibility for the work.
Kind of like an arsonist who, setting a fire to the response of the fire company that discovers a house full of children being trafficked, and thence rescued might say "I did well to set that fire on the porch, for look, a house full of abused children was saved" And therefore thinks himself to some beneficence as part of their salvation.
But read again. Peter's words are plain:
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Christ's restoration of Peter in forgiveness (as no less, our own) was not in vain. Peter knew now that in God's determinate will all was purposed, yet Peter still had to, in that light, finding then no place of false claim of innocence, (for he knew all too well his intents to save his own skin)...were clearly displayed against (in contrast to) a will of One to give all His own self.
Here is where repentance is meet. The clear revelation that "I am all of like this"..."God is all of like that" and there is no more confusing that I am, or "my word", according to my will, or doing is of any effect except wickedness...and that Jesus Christ alone is the word of God to man, and every man.
"I will smite the shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered" meets "Even if they all desert you I shall not", for the man in wanting to think well of himself (and this is an incontrovertible operation) must oppose the word of God. In truth this is all of what opposes...what operates according to the need to think well of one's self.
Jesus said "How can you believe who receive glory from one another...?" It is impossible (apart from an intervention).
No Peter is not blaming the Jews, nor trying to elicit from them some ungodly sorrow...but the clear presentation of recognition. Yes...God purposes salvation...you (we all) had purposes totally opposed...we (all) have tried...to "kill life".
God is looking for truth in the inward parts...not some sort of mewling and scraping self abasing...for when we admit "I am this" "God is that" only then is the Lord Jesus revealed as the reconciliation for the two polar opposites. He alone is where the irreconcilable...is reconciled. But until a man is broken by this revelation of truth...that unbridgeable gap...what need has he of a savior, a bridge, a daysman who might lay hand to both...to bring together?
Where all righteousness meets all unrighteousness in a Person, (Jesus Christ is no mere "concept") the only person so chosen, elected, ordained, determined...that both holds (without slackening or relinquishing) to both God and man in Himself.
In some form of silly exposition (if one cares to receive it) He is what holds to both the dynamo of all positive output, and the ground...never letting go of either...never blaming God for His estate, nor letting go of man no matter how despitefully He is treated. Being reviled, he reviled not ...
Something's "gotta give" in that estate. All righteousness meeting all unrighteousness (man)...and the fuse was blown. Perfect overload. All demands of righteousness for judgment...meeting all that is in requirement of judgment. BOOM! All wrath spent...all old man...burned to a crisp. In a person. Death.
No wonder the disciples hid, were full of fear, wept, barricaded themselves in despair...how could they know...even despite their being told? Really...how could they? They saw Him die...gone...pffft, light of life...out, gone...in a tomb...cold (to them)...all that showering and bathing in light of God's presence among them...now snuffed out.
You want to talk about despair? It's one thing to lose (or believe one has lost) a dollar, it's quite another to awake to find everything...all accounts emptied, deeds once in your name transferred, all you held to your bosom as joy or security, or pleasure...gone. But those are just worldly things of taste...what the disciples had tasted was far beyond of hope, and security, joy, and a place...now moldering in a tomb.
Oh, the world didn't "miss Him" for a moment, was glad to be rid of Him, was delighted it could display His death...His seeming powerlessness over it, finally show Him as impostor (for God did not rescue Him)...man still held the ace in the hole...death to impose (at an accomplice's encouraging, the enemy of all truth) to triumph against what would be to its own rebuke.
For Jesus came preaching "Repent and believe the gospel..." What need to pay heed to what...by death imposed...showed it was no more than any other man? And a fool no less, maneuvered by what appeared his own "press"...to go too far...that he might be seen and presented close enough to a thing that it might appear rightly (with just the slightest of juggling) hung upon Him...blasphemy. Lord, but man is so very clever! How would any know...what was truly "going on?" Man was being man...and the god that man had presumed, was, to presumptuous man...showing He had nothing (obviously) at stake in this...or He would have acted.
When man is clever, there is One who shows Himself...more clever.
(Do you remember the devils asking "have you come to torment us before the time?" Do you not know they went "whew, that was close...but look...He's dead! there's more...time")
Ahhh, the wisdom of God! All found concluding to one thing. Man, devils, every principality and power that has had investment in the world to its own pleasure...and has exercised power over man to be their accomplice...
Defeated. Their investment was great, their investment was huge, their investment seemed unbreakably deep...but He went where their investment could not, would not, is all unable to follow (for theirs is only to pleasure)...He willingly went into death.
To show, in the resurrection, another...whose full investment was there made plain...and so much more exceedingly and over-abundantly able to eclipse...that it has. And makes such full triumphant show of all their poverty.
And we should know this better than they. And we shall.
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gordon 2
Senior Member
So. So is a man who is bound to the morals of the world in parts and yet a believer, is he a believer in parts also? The man that trusts God (good) and yet is not adverse to torturing his enemy( not so good). The man that has no neighbor beyond the border of this village and only friend and foe there and yet a believer?
And so it is this very believer that is saved? This is man, even a believer. So a call to repentance or even a change of heart, in-vested fully and in-vested in part, dying to self through Christ and and dying to self through the world, never the less saved--- for he/she believes?
I am after Pentecost today and as before Pentecost today...my works are without merit, and some to demerit, and so it must that once saved always saved otherwise there is none. But wait a little voice, like the voice of a child dares to claim:"Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."
So perhaps once saved always saved is nearer my God to thee and such belief, this understanding, not the work saves me and so once saved always saved. So my heart yet cleaved, is made to crave for all of my Redeemer and so to this saved, I am ever saved even when to Him I don't go?
And so salvation is a way of life and not a state of being. Having gone to that way, I cannot deny it, yet I be nothing except I am in the way-- for the grace of God. And so, for this I'm ever saved from death and spare others of it. Ever turned to life and the source of all that is good is the source of all my morals. And this is my salvation... to love from the source of love as it is--- Paradise.
So to be saved and always saved is to love God and your neighbor as yourself. And this is not a work, for the way of love is not work--it is to live where there is no shame. Angels might pray in tongues there, but man need not.
And so it is this very believer that is saved? This is man, even a believer. So a call to repentance or even a change of heart, in-vested fully and in-vested in part, dying to self through Christ and and dying to self through the world, never the less saved--- for he/she believes?
I am after Pentecost today and as before Pentecost today...my works are without merit, and some to demerit, and so it must that once saved always saved otherwise there is none. But wait a little voice, like the voice of a child dares to claim:"Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."
So perhaps once saved always saved is nearer my God to thee and such belief, this understanding, not the work saves me and so once saved always saved. So my heart yet cleaved, is made to crave for all of my Redeemer and so to this saved, I am ever saved even when to Him I don't go?
And so salvation is a way of life and not a state of being. Having gone to that way, I cannot deny it, yet I be nothing except I am in the way-- for the grace of God. And so, for this I'm ever saved from death and spare others of it. Ever turned to life and the source of all that is good is the source of all my morals. And this is my salvation... to love from the source of love as it is--- Paradise.
So to be saved and always saved is to love God and your neighbor as yourself. And this is not a work, for the way of love is not work--it is to live where there is no shame. Angels might pray in tongues there, but man need not.
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Madman
Senior Member
You fellows go considerably deeper than I do or can.
I am convinced that "once saved always saved" comes from Calvin's doctrines of the total depravity of man. (No where in church history do we see this, even in discussion, before Calvin.)
Calvin held that everyone is saved or dam**d before birth and there is nothing that he can do about it. Anyone who held to that belief in double predestination was then obligated to reform their own doctrine in a manner that could fit.
The Church has always taught, as we believe is proven in Holy Scripture, that man is saved by the grace of God which is freely received. Salvation and sanctification must be consented to (God forces no man).
I am convinced that "once saved always saved" comes from Calvin's doctrines of the total depravity of man. (No where in church history do we see this, even in discussion, before Calvin.)
Calvin held that everyone is saved or dam**d before birth and there is nothing that he can do about it. Anyone who held to that belief in double predestination was then obligated to reform their own doctrine in a manner that could fit.
The Church has always taught, as we believe is proven in Holy Scripture, that man is saved by the grace of God which is freely received. Salvation and sanctification must be consented to (God forces no man).
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
The Bible teaches that God is omniscient. Considering that, wouldn't God already know who is saved and/or saved and then lost? Why would God go to the trouble to save someone he foreknew would eventually lose their salvation?
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Have you ever read Psalm 139?
Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
I'm not sure how one can be anything other than what they are. Even if you were to change, and I believe you can, God has already seen that change. The day that change happened, God had already knew you were to change.
So in the aspect of Psalms 139, God is always with us and already knows us and his enemies.
Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
I'm not sure how one can be anything other than what they are. Even if you were to change, and I believe you can, God has already seen that change. The day that change happened, God had already knew you were to change.
So in the aspect of Psalms 139, God is always with us and already knows us and his enemies.
I have two computers down and only a small tablet still running but here is what I have.
From about 1100 years before Calvin. I think there are earlier works but I can't remember who they are; Augustin or Schaffer may mention them. There are also some between August in and Calvin.
https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105/npnf105.xxi.iii.ii.html
Be careful to identify the editor's comments as distinct from the translation of Augustin's work. I think there should be 68 chapters total.
Madman
Senior Member
Art,
Glad to see ya.
Biblically God's desire is that everyone should be saved. So that being the case why does he not just save everyone?
Madman
Senior Member
Are we talking about predestination or once saved always saved? the exact definition of predestination has been discussed and argued for a long time, I look at the consensus of the church and that has always been that the Church does not hold to double predestination.
There is a big difference in the two.
it seems to me that you would have to read it, with the Spirit, to know what you will call it. The other obvious option is to let someone else put their spin on it for you.
Madman
Senior Member
So is your response that double predestination and once saved always saved are the same thing?
So is it your position that OSAS is exclusively an Arminian doctrine? If so, and if defined in terms that show that to be the case, I probably wouldn't disagree. However, in showing that case,your statement concerning Calvin would be proven incorrect, being that it was that statement that initially conflated the theological systems.
Madman
Senior Member
I believe we are talking past each other. I am asking if OSAS is the same as Double predestination.
I say they are connected, by Calvin's doctrine, but that they are technically different.
I say they are connected, by Calvin's doctrine, but that they are technically different.
And I say that you need to explain "technically different", and in doing so, distinguish between Calvin's relevant doctrine and Augustin's doctrine, without which significant distinction the contention of your initial statement has been shown to be false.
Madman
Senior Member
Calvin's doctrine of predestination - some are chosen by God for salvation and some are chosen by God for eternal da**ation.
OSAS - Once someone has accepted Christ for salvation there is nothing nor anyone who can change that, they are on the way to heaven.
OSAS - Once someone has accepted Christ for salvation there is nothing nor anyone who can change that, they are on the way to heaven.
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