j_seph
Senior Member
Here is a series that started yesterday at a local church in N. GA
Yes it will, I have respect for Will Fuller. He is a good man and a good preacher.This is going to be interesting.
Bet this one dies a quick "death", But I would love here the arguments both ways.
I know, but maybe, just maybe, something new will be brought up, new friends made and old wounds healed.You can save time and do a search. There is probably an entire server dedicated just to storing what has been said on this subject here. It comes up about every year or two. The arguments and justifications are the same.
The Bible teaches that God is omniscient. Considering that, wouldn't God already know who is saved and/or saved and then lost? Why would God go to the trouble to save someone he foreknew would eventually lose their salvation?You fellows go considerably deeper than I do or can.
I am convinced that "once saved always saved" comes from Calvin's doctrines of the total depravity of man. (No where in church history do we see this, even in discussion, before Calvin.)
Calvin held that everyone is saved or dam**d before birth and there is nothing that he can do about it. Anyone who held to that belief in double predestination was then obligated to reform their own doctrine in a manner that could fit.
The Church has always taught, as we believe is proven in Holy Scripture, that man is saved by the grace of God which is freely received. Salvation and sanctification must be consented to (God forces no man).
I have two computers down and only a small tablet still running but here is what I have.You fellows go considerably deeper than I do or can.
I am convinced that "once saved always saved" comes from Calvin's doctrines of the total depravity of man. (No where in church history do we see this, even in discussion, before Calvin.)
Calvin held that everyone is saved or dam**d before birth and there is nothing that he can do about it. Anyone who held to that belief in double predestination was then obligated to reform their own doctrine in a manner that could fit.
The Church has always taught, as we believe is proven in Holy Scripture, that man is saved by the grace of God which is freely received. Salvation and sanctification must be consented to (God forces no man).
The Bible teaches that God is omniscient. Considering that, wouldn't God already know who is saved and/or saved and then lost? Why would God go to the trouble to save someone he foreknew would eventually lose their salvation?
Are we talking about predestination or once saved always saved? the exact definition of predestination has been discussed and argued for a long time, I look at the consensus of the church and that has always been that the Church does not hold to double predestination.I have two computers down and only a small tablet still running but here is what I have.
From about 1100 years before Calvin. I think there are earlier works but I can't remember who they are; Augustin or Schaffer may mention them. There are also some between August in and Calvin.
https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105/npnf105.xxi.iii.ii.html
Be careful to identify the editor's comments as distinct from the translation of Augustin's work. I think there should be 68 chapters total.
it seems to me that you would have to read it, with the Spirit, to know what you will call it. The other obvious option is to let someone else put their spin on it for you.Are we talking about predestination or once saved always saved? the exact definition of predestination has been discussed and argued for a long time, I look at the consensus of the church and that has always been that the Church does not hold to double predestination.
There is a big difference in the two.
So is your response that double predestination and once saved always saved are the same thing?it seems to me that you would have to read it, with the Spirit, to know what you will call it. The other obvious option is to let someone else put their spin on it for you.
So is it your position that OSAS is exclusively an Arminian doctrine? If so, and if defined in terms that show that to be the case, I probably wouldn't disagree. However, in showing that case,your statement concerning Calvin would be proven incorrect, being that it was that statement that initially conflated the theological systems.So is your response that double predestination and once saved always saved are the same thing?
And I say that you need to explain "technically different", and in doing so, distinguish between Calvin's relevant doctrine and Augustin's doctrine, without which significant distinction the contention of your initial statement has been shown to be false.I believe we are talking past each other. I am asking if OSAS is the same as Double predestination.
I say they are connected, by Calvin's doctrine, but that they are technically different.