Another church thread.....long winded OP

[JB0704]

Don't you think you should desire to be approved by those in Spiritual Leadership? I mean, secondary from being approved by God....but didn't Timothy seek Paul's approval? How much of an encouragement to be approved by those who are Godly men.

I guess it depends on who those are in spiritual leadership....doesn't it?

I have know a bunch of "great men of God" who were actually complete scoundrels. I put a whole lot more emphasis on actions than title......which is why I think a relationship must be established with congregants.

Also, don't you think it is not only the responsibility of the leaders to get to know those who sit in the back row, but also the responsibility of those in the back row to get to know the leaders? Can't just have one side of the coin. Both sides are there and they both have to work for it to be successful.

Who is calling who the "leader?" If a man wants to be a "pastor," then he should be a pastor. We can say the responsibility goes in both directions, but I think a solid biblical case can be built that one does not excuse the other. Additionally, I think we can build a solid case that those in leadership positions have the mandate to "lead."

Leadership does not excuse it's failures on followers.

 

[rjcruiser]

I guess it depends on who those are in spiritual leadership....doesn't it?

Absolutely.

Who is calling who the "leader?" If a man wants to be a "pastor," then he should be a pastor. We can say the responsibility goes in both directions, but I think a solid biblical case can be built that one does not excuse the other. Additionally, I think we can build a solid case that those in leadership positions have the mandate to "lead."

Leadership does not excuse it's failures on followers.

True. But you can never have a friendship or a relationship with someone who won't put the time into it. Just like a marriage...takes two people who want to be there. If one of them doesn't want it, no matter how bad the other does, it just won't work.

 

[Huntinfool]

Then we have different trust issues.

I think you're right....and I think that might be the understatement of the year! Ha!





If you've spent several years in a church and haven't established any relationships, then it's likely not the church that's the problem.

If you've spent several years in a church and the pastor still doesn't know the names of your kids, then the church is either very large (and then I understand...but someone in leadership should), or you need to find a new church.

I think we started attending our church very close to its beginning. At that point, I had never lived in this county before, knew absolutely nobody and had basically zero relationships in Georgia. I didn't know a single soul in the church when we started attending.

I have seen those men go to great lengths for anyone who struggles in our church and is open to their help. I have also seen them reach out to people who were former attenders but left long ago...because they knew they had no one else to help them.

There are lots of people out there who have "given up" on the church for various reasons.

Most of the people I've met who "gave up" fit this description to a "T" (please note "most"):

 

[JB0704]

True. But you can never have a friendship or a relationship with someone who won't put the time into it. Just like a marriage...takes two people who want to be there. If one of them doesn't want it, no matter how bad the other does, it just won't work.

Agreed.

But, let's say a fella has fallen from grace. REstoration is now the mandate. Should the actions of the church be based on the fallen's previous actions?

Or, do the leaders ahve to go and get the "lost sheep?" Regardless of who he was to them? It's an honest question.....I think there are two way of looking at it. One is the lost sheep, the other is the prodigal son. Not sure which applies.

I tend to think that the lost sheep applies. And the leaders have their responsibilities whether the fallen has been a good congregant or not.

 

[Huntinfool]

What RJ doesn't know is that I'm really opting out this year to give him another year to scout that property for me.

I'm 100% confident in his lack of shooting ability, so there is no fear whatsoever, on my part, that my giant from last year won't be 2 years older and waiting for me to slide an arrow through his ribcage in November 2013.

I figure, by that point, he'll push 170 or so. I'm considering this year QDM.

 

[JB0704]

I think you're right....and I think that might be the understatement of the year! Ha!

If I send you a long-winded PM, will you read it and give an honest response? I have more to say on the subject, but have zero desire to post it out here......

There are lots of people out there who have "given up" on the church for various reasons.

Most of the people I've met who "gave up" fit this description to a "T"

Honestly, that is what those who want to defend the church say about others to make themselves feel better about the church's failures. Wouldn't it be better to focus on the things people say which are correct rather than belittle those who have legitimate issues with the church?

I mean, good grief, every church wants people to come on Sunday, but they want to blame them when they don't.....

"Me" has nothing to do with it, HF. I wish you would get beyond that....and focus ont he points at hand (which was the point of the whole "acceptance" conmment to start with).

 

[Huntinfool]

Or, do the leaders ahve to go and get the "lost sheep?" Regardless of who he was to them? It's an honest question.....I think there are two way of looking at it. One is the lost sheep, the other is the prodigal son. Not sure which applies.

I depends entirely on whether the lost sheep desires to be found.


You can lead a lost sheep to living water, but.....

 

[Huntinfool]

If I send you a long-winded PM, will you read it and give an honest response? I have more to say on the subject, but have zero desire to post it out here......

Absolutey! You can say a lot of things about me...but I don't think you can accuse me of not reading what you post or being honest about how I feel on something!

 

[rjcruiser]

Agreed.

But, let's say a fella has fallen from grace. REstoration is now the mandate. Should the actions of the church be based on the fallen's previous actions?

Or, do the leaders ahve to go and get the "lost sheep?" Regardless of who he was to them? It's an honest question.....I think there are two way of looking at it. One is the lost sheep, the other is the prodigal son. Not sure which applies.

I tend to think that the lost sheep applies. And the leaders have their responsibilities whether the fallen has been a good congregant or not.

I think both apply. Not sure the Matt 18 thread got this answer...but I know HF and I've said it before....the whole goal of it is restoration. Bringing that lost one back.

What RJ doesn't know is that I'm really opting out this year to give him another year to scout that property for me.

I'm 100% confident in his lack of shooting ability, so there is no fear whatsoever, on my part, that my giant from last year won't be 2 years older and waiting for me to slide an arrow through his ribcage in November 2013.

I figure, by that point, he'll push 170 or so. I'm considering this year QDM.

 

[JB0704]

Just an FYI for others, this is what HF turned down this November

Since we're off topic.....

I got these running around here in Ga.....just have no idea how to hunt them. Thanks to a certain member on this forum, I may have an instructor in the spring

 

[JB0704]

Absolutey! You can say a lot of things about me...but I don't think you can accuse me of not reading what you post or being honest about how I feel on something!

Sometimes I get the feeling you skim a bit

 

[Huntinfool]

Honestly, that is what those who want to defend the church say about others to make themselves feel better about the church's failures. Wouldn't it be better to focus on the things people say which are correct rather than belittle those who have legitimate issues with the church?

I mean, good grief, every church wants people to come on Sunday, but they want to blame them when they don't.....

"Me" has nothing to do with it, HF. I wish you would get beyond that....and focus ont he points at hand (which was the point of the whole "acceptance" conmment to start with).

There is a LOT wrong with a LOT of churches. No argument there.

What I have observed over the past decade or so is that most of the people who have given up on church have done so for selfish and self-centered reasons.

There are absolutely those out there with legitimate complaints and every single local church has things they need to work on. But, for the most part, the people who have legit issues are the people who recognize ungodly leadership, leave their current church for that reason and go intentionally to find another body that is being led by godly men.

I've just never met a mature believer who has told me they literally cannot find one church that is being led in a godly manner.

 

[Huntinfool]

Since we're off topic.....

I got these running around here in Ga.....just have no idea how to hunt them. Thanks to a certain member on this forum, I may have an instructor in the spring

See JB, now I'm starting to like you a little more every day. I'm sure that by, oh say, mid-March we could be GREAT buddies. Maybe we take a Saturday and do some fellowshipping around that particular area?

 

[rjcruiser]

Since we're off topic.....

I got these running around here in Ga.....just have no idea how to hunt them. Thanks to a certain member on this forum, I may have an instructor in the spring

Well...if you want someone who's gotten a turkey with a bow...pm me.

 

[rjcruiser]

I've just never met a mature believer who has told me they literally cannot find one church that is being led in a godly manner.

godly leadership isn't usually the issue. It is usually a handful of secondary issues that boil up into "I just don't see myself continuing on at that church."

 

[Huntinfool]

They all boil up to leadership, though, don't they? If there are secondary issues, it's a leadership problem.

I'll say this....from what I know...if there is anyone who I would say has a legit excuse to "give up" it's you guys.....but you haven't and I think that says a lot.

 

[JB0704]

See JB, now I'm starting to like you a little more every day. I'm sure that by, oh say, mid-March we could be GREAT buddies. Maybe we take a Saturday and do some fellowshipping around that particular area?

If you go back through your PM's, you will find one where I was hinting around at needing help learning to turkey hunt.........

Anyway, I have worked out a "hunt-swap" with a very generous person on here....gonna be a fun fall and spring!

 

[Huntinfool]

Sometimes I get the feeling you skim a bit

Me????

I resemble that remark! I mean....I resent that remark!

 

[Huntinfool]

If you go back through your PM's, you will find one where I was hinting around at needing help learning to turkey hunt.........

Anyway, I have worked out a "hunt-swap" with a very generous person on here....gonna be a fun fall and spring!

I'm just kidding man. Looks like you've got a great place for spring. As long as there aren't 15 other turkey hunters out there, you should be golden.

You know I can't hunt with you. You're unclean, a non-church-goer and that giant red "D" on your turkey vest would scare all the birds away!

 

[rjcruiser]

They all boil up to leadership, though, don't they? If there are secondary issues, it's a leadership problem.

Mmm...no I don't think so. There are secondary issues at my current church that sometimes have me discouraged. The leadership model is Biblical.

I'll say this....from what I know...if there is anyone who I would say has a legit excuse to "give up" it's you guys.....but you haven't and I think that says a lot.

Thanks for the encouragement