Faith and "miracles" - read the comments section!

[brutally honest]

I understand that you aren't interested in trolling, but just giving your opinion or asking questions isn't necessarily trolling, just a starting point for discussions IMHO.

Are we talking about the same thing? Just to be clear, when I mentioned “trolling”, I was talking about dragging a bait behind the boat to catch fish.

I brought up fishing because I enjoy it — but not all forms of it. Likewise, I enjoy discussing Christianity — but not all aspects of it.

 

[WaltL1]

Are we talking about the same thing? Just to be clear, when I mentioned “trolling”, I was talking about dragging a bait behind the boat to catch fish.

I brought up fishing because I enjoy it — but not all forms of it. Likewise, I enjoy discussing Christianity — but not all aspects of it.

I was talking about dragging a bait behind the boat to catch fish.

Yeah trolling can be pretty boring. But pretty darn effective at times. Its a last resort for me. Has saved me from getting skunked more than once though.

 

[Spotlite]

Yeah trolling can be pretty boring. But pretty darn effective at times. Its a last resort for me. Has saved me from getting skunked more than once though.

I love it on a windy day!!!

 

[oldfella1962]

Are we talking about the same thing? Just to be clear, when I mentioned “trolling”, I was talking about dragging a bait behind the boat to catch fish.

I brought up fishing because I enjoy it — but not all forms of it. Likewise, I enjoy discussing Christianity — but not all aspects of it.

Oh I see - "trolling" is deliberately stirring up trouble, often by misrepresenting your true intentions. Often it means portraying an exaggerated caricature of a likely antagonist to the status quo.
Here's another definition:

A troll is defined in the Urban Dictionary as “one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."

 

[brutally honest]

Oh I see - "trolling" is deliberately stirring up trouble, often by misrepresenting your true intentions. Often it means portraying an exaggerated caricature of a likely antagonist to the status quo.
Here's another definition:

A troll is defined in the Urban Dictionary as “one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."

Oh, I know what it is. I’ve seen some masters of it over the years.

 

[BassMan31]

Back in the day (decades ago) I offered locals in Alabama a way to "debunk" a possible "angel feather" miracle and was griped at for attacking their "faith".
But if you think you are experiencing a miracle, wouldn't you invite logical outside-your-circle examination into your claim? Wouldn't you want to know whether you are either mistaken or that God really is demonstrating his supernatural divine power? My personal opinions here:

You (the miracle witnesser) really want to believe in "belief". At this point I wouldn't call it believing in "faith" because the Biblical definition of faith is hope in what is unseen. In the miracle scenario you have indeed just "seen", and your belief in miracles is now validated. In other words, you are on a religious bender, and you don't want anyone to make you sober up. IMHO whether consciously or not, you are placing more importance on your personal beliefs than on the cold, hard truth.

I totally understand that nobody wants their beliefs (in any area of their life) questioned because they take it as a personal attack. But using the best methods available to rationally probe for possible alternate explanations for what you perceive as proof of a legit Godly "miracle" should be expected.

Perhaps some people don't want their religious beliefs to be lumped in with UFO's, Bigfoot, ghosts/hauntings and other phenomena that have no hard evidence to support them. Regardless, read the comments section to get some reactions to having miracles examined and explained AKA "debunked."

Four Debunked Religious "Miracles" | RealClearScience

the miraculous has no correlation to anyone's individual perception.

"logic" is a mathematical term and is inappropriate when used in any other context.

the bible does not say "faith is hope in the unseen." it says faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen. if you don't know what that means, read my first sentence again.

opinions are like Alabama fans: fun to ridicule but not good for much else.

 

[BassMan31]

A lot of Christians (like me) are just not that interested in apologetics. I love to fish, but I have zero interest in trolling — just not my thing.

FWIW, this forum does seem to have really good discussions. Upstairs, there are a lot of lectures and stream-of-consciousness theology, but good discussions are few and far between.

apologetics can be fun to engage. kind of like it's fun to listen to macroeconomic "talks" and read macro letters but is ultimately pointless in investing.

I'm not interested in explaining affairs of the faith in ways palatable to satanic worshipers. there's no point. their hearts are dark and I see no point in casting pearls before the swine.

 

[bullethead]

apologetics can be fun to engage. kind of like it's fun to listen to macroeconomic "talks" and read macro letters but is ultimately pointless in investing.



I'm not interested in explaining affairs of the faith in ways palatable to satanic worshipers. there's no point. their hearts are dark and I see no point in casting pearls before the swine.

"Satanic Worshippers"
Where?

 

[WaltL1]

"Satanic Worshippers"
Where?

You didnt get the memo?
If you arent convinced (G)gods exist then surely you worship Satan. Who you also dont think exists. Yet you worship him even though you dont believe he exists .... oh wait that doesnt make a lick of sense. Never mind.

 

[bullethead]

You didnt get the memo?
If you arent convinced (G)gods exist then surely you worship Satan. Who you also dont think exists. Yet you worship him even though you dont believe he exists .... oh wait that doesnt make a lick of sense. Never mind.

Lolol truth.
Sometimes you wonder if people know what they are talking about and then they make a statement and eliminate all doubt.

 

[oldfella1962]

the miraculous has no correlation to anyone's individual perception.

"logic" is a mathematical term and is inappropriate when used in any other context.

the bible does not say "faith is hope in the unseen." it says faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen. if you don't know what that means, read my first sentence again.

opinions are like Alabama fans: fun to ridicule but not good for much else.

"the miraculous has no correlation to anyone's individual perception".

Interesting! So much like the question "if a tree falls down and nobody is around to hear it fall, does it still make a sound?" In other words do miracles occur when nobody is around to witness the miracles, and thus perceive them - and classify them - as miracles?
If X event occurs and only the segment of the population that has "faith" considers X event a miracle, then the miracle simultaneously exists and does not exist so to speak. Once X event is scientifically explained little changes - maybe a few "believers" admit they were mistaken, but most do not change their minds. Regardless, if you believe in legit miracles (as they fit your definition of miracle) do you believe that they occur when no human is around to witness them unfolding whether in real time or discovered after the fact? Personally I think miracles are only created when humans create them, and they only exist as long as humans believe in them. In other words, they are a product of the human imagination.
Again, just my 2 cents.

 

[Spotlite]

"the miraculous has no correlation to anyone's individual perception".

Interesting! So much like the question "if a tree falls down and nobody is around to hear it fall, does it still make a sound?" In other words do miracles occur when nobody is around to witness the miracles, and thus perceive them - and classify them - as miracles?
If X event occurs and only the segment of the population that has "faith" considers X event a miracle, then the miracle simultaneously exists and does not exist so to speak. Once X event is scientifically explained little changes - maybe a few "believers" admit they were mistaken, but most do not change their minds. Regardless, if you believe in legit miracles (as they fit your definition of miracle) do you believe that they occur when no human is around to witness them unfolding whether in real time or discovered after the fact? Personally I think miracles are only created when humans create them, and they only exist as long as humans believe in them. In other words, they are a product of the human imagination.
Again, just my 2 cents.

"the miraculous has no correlation to anyone's individual perception".

Interesting! So much like the question "if a tree falls down and nobody is around to hear it fall, does it still make a sound?" In other words do miracles occur when nobody is around to witness the miracles,

Along that thought - just because you didn’t hear that tree fall does that mean it made no sound?

 

[oldfella1962]

Along that thought - just because you didn’t hear that tree fall does that mean it made no sound?

No, because observing falling trees in the past indicates that they do indeed produce a sound. That said if I observe a tree falling and it makes no sound, is that a miracle or did I go deaf? If I take a hearing test and my hearing is returned, is that a miracle? Or did the falling tree produce no sound, and that was the miracle?