Faith and "miracles" - read the comments section!

[Ruger#3]

I wouldn't even need that. I would accept much less of a Cecil B DeMill production where after a mass prayer to whatever God of choice amputees worldwide would all start to regrow limbs. Let Drs and Scientists monitor their progress, scan and test as warranted. Let the scientific and medical community concur that there is no natural explanation.
That would do it for me.

On the other hand, what happened to the Bills player is an impressive combination of having all the right medical personell in place to perform the right procedures on a human who is young and in top physical condition. Time, skill, procedure, youth, healthy all played important roles. A miracle would have been that he had expired and hours after no brain or organ functions he revives and pops up as if nothing at all happened to him and he is on the field this week.
I absolutely thought it was a nice sight to see the teams, players and people across the world come together and pray that day for Hamlin and all the times afterwards. But I also thought that with all of the diversity between individuals were they all praying to the same God?

This is the difference in perspective.

Wifes a cardiac critical care RN, death is a too frequent visitor.
Several times she’s told me of patients out of options. Death is just a matter of how long it takes their particular body to fail. The hospital offers counseling and the hospital chaplain for the family to begin deal with the loss of their loved one. Some families begin to make this transition waiting on their loved one to pass. Others will not acknowledge the inevitable until their loved one passes.

Then there’s the families who don’t give up, pray for Gods intervention everyday even though informed of what’s coming. There is no medical solution, no path forward. Treatments end and comfort care begins. A tiny number of these defy the odds. They begin to recover or go into remission. There is absolutely no medical reason this occurs. Drs can’t explain why as it doesn’t make medical sense, they don’t know how long they live as their existence defies all medical knowledge. A miracle, that’s for each of us to decide. When it happens it will tug at the heart of the coolest individual.

 

[oldfella1962]

This is the difference in perspective.

Wifes a cardiac critical care RN, death is a too frequent visitor.
Several times she’s told me of patients out of options. Death is just a matter of how long it takes their particular body to fail. The hospital offers counseling and the hospital chaplain for the family to begin deal with the loss of their loved one. Some families begin to make this transition waiting on their loved one to pass. Others will not acknowledge the inevitable until their loved one passes.

Then there’s the families who don’t give up, pray for Gods intervention everyday even though informed of what’s coming. There is no medical solution, no path forward. Treatments end and comfort care begins. A tiny number of these defy the odds. They begin to recover or go into remission. There is absolutely no medical reason this occurs. Drs can’t explain why as it doesn’t make medical sense, they don’t know how long they live as their existence defies all medical knowledge. A miracle, that’s for each of us to decide. When it happens it will tug at the heart of the coolest individual.

This is where it gets tricky. Did somebody's cancer go into remission because of the prayers, or would the cancer have gone into remission regardless? There's no way to tell. That said a controlled, legit study with a pretty large pool of subjects was done (The Templeton Foundation prayer study) about the effectiveness of intercessory prayer, and the results are just about what normal chance turns out to be. In some cases, the subjects got worse for various reasons when they knew they were being prayed for! This doesn't mean prayer is counter-productive by default, and I'm not implying that this is the case.

Of course - people being people - believers & non-believers dispute the results of the experiment. This doesn't mean prayer is counter-productive by default, and I'm not implying that this is the case. Prayer can provide positive psychological benefits to the prayed for and those praying who believe in it, which equates to positive physical benefits so if people want to pray in life affecting medical situations, I see no harm in it.

 

[WaltL1]

This is the difference in perspective.

Wifes a cardiac critical care RN, death is a too frequent visitor.
Several times she’s told me of patients out of options. Death is just a matter of how long it takes their particular body to fail. The hospital offers counseling and the hospital chaplain for the family to begin deal with the loss of their loved one. Some families begin to make this transition waiting on their loved one to pass. Others will not acknowledge the inevitable until their loved one passes.

Then there’s the families who don’t give up, pray for Gods intervention everyday even though informed of what’s coming. There is no medical solution, no path forward. Treatments end and comfort care begins. A tiny number of these defy the odds. They begin to recover or go into remission. There is absolutely no medical reason this occurs. Drs can’t explain why as it doesn’t make medical sense, they don’t know how long they live as their existence defies all medical knowledge. A miracle, that’s for each of us to decide. When it happens it will tug at the heart of the coolest individual.

I have to wonder how many instances does it take to go from being a "miracle" to "its amazing how the body can recover unexpectedly"?
If you take your wife's experiences and multiply it by critical care RNs around the world who undoubtedly has seen the same thing and it kind of ceases to be a "miracle".
Unexplainable? Sure.
But does that make it a miracle? Not in my opinion.

 

[bullethead]

I think some questions from your point of view would be welcomed there.

I'm OK staying in this sandbox simply because to discuss one topic there are 400 possible paths to go down which all connect. To acknowlegde one God because of personal experience means all other Gods should be acknowledged for the same reason and that isn't going to happen up there.

 

[WaltL1]

I think some questions from your point of view would be welcomed there.

I don't.

 

[Ruger#3]

I have to wonder how many instances does it take to go from being a "miracle" to "its amazing how the body can recover unexpectedly"?
If you take your wife's experiences and multiply it by critical care RNs around the world who undoubtedly has seen the same thing and it kind of ceases to be a "miracle".
Unexplainable? Sure.
But does that make it a miracle? Not in my opinion.

I didn’t expect it to, just provided an experience.

 

[bullethead]

This is the difference in perspective.

Wifes a cardiac critical care RN, death is a too frequent visitor.
Several times she’s told me of patients out of options. Death is just a matter of how long it takes their particular body to fail. The hospital offers counseling and the hospital chaplain for the family to begin deal with the loss of their loved one. Some families begin to make this transition waiting on their loved one to pass. Others will not acknowledge the inevitable until their loved one passes.

Then there’s the families who don’t give up, pray for Gods intervention everyday even though informed of what’s coming. There is no medical solution, no path forward. Treatments end and comfort care begins. A tiny number of these defy the odds. They begin to recover or go into remission. There is absolutely no medical reason this occurs. Drs can’t explain why as it doesn’t make medical sense, they don’t know how long they live as their existence defies all medical knowledge. A miracle, that’s for each of us to decide. When it happens it will tug at the heart of the coolest individual.

I truly appreciate what you are conveying. I also know for a fact that there are exceptions to each if those rules at make both a 50/50 reality.
If the members of one belief system had an advantage over all the others I could absolutely buy what they are trying to sell. But there isn't a single one that has anything over the other.

Which God answered who's prayer?
Is it possible that Allah granted extended health because even though family and friends are Christian and pray around the patient every day the person in the next bed is Muslim and asked Allah to grant their neighbor health.?.?.?

Why did Duhmar Hamlin recover so quickly? Was it because of Christian prayers, Muslim prayer, Jewish prayers or any number of other things said or done by millions of people who tried something on his behalf according to their beliefs?

 

[oldfella1962]

I truly appreciate what you are conveying. I also know for a fact that there are exceptions to each if those rules at make both a 50/50 reality.
If the members of one belief system had an advantage over all the others I could absolutely buy what they are trying to sell. But there isn't a single one that has anything over the other.

Which God answered who's prayer?
Is it possible that Allah granted extended health because even though family and friends are Christian and pray around the patient every day the person in the next bed is Muslim and asked Allah to grant their neighbor health.?.?.?

Why did Duhmar Hamlin recover so quickly? Was it because of Christian prayers, Muslim prayer, Jewish prayers or any number of other things said or done by millions of people who tried something on his behalf according to their beliefs?

While there may not be enough solid data, if we could examine the recovery rates of people who had a similar injury that stopped their heart and had similar medical care, we could determine if his fast recovery was out of the ordinary/unexpected or relatively typical.

 

[Spotlite]

I don't.

Probably right, unfortunately. I’ll rephrase - I think some questions should be welcomed.

 

[WaltL1]

Probably right, unfortunately. I’ll rephrase - I think some questions should be welcomed.

Our questions dont freak you out the way they do alot (not all) of other Christians.

 

[bullethead]

Our questions dont freak you out the way they do alot (not all) of other Christians.

Not a knock against anyone who is a regular above and not in here but it seems that the guys who stay above do it because it is their playground and tolerate the like mindedness there more than the questions, points and counterpoints they'd get down here.
I don't want to take that up there.
They seem more tolerable when they get disagreement from other Christians rather than disagreement from anything else.

I have noticed over the years that a few (not all) who have visited this forum and who's claims, assertions and points got challenged down here left and continued on with their same claims, assertions and points back up there due to it being an easier crowd. They didn't have to answer up there for the questions they couldn't answer down here. And that is cool. Many of us just stay in our lane.

I will say that I do read the threads up above and there is No Question that they get into some Doozie exhanges....but it is mostly contained to who thinks they have a better understanding of the religion or God because "God" is already assumed and agreed upon to exist overall.

 

[WaltL1]

Not a knock against anyone who is a regular above and not in here but it seems that the guys who stay above do it because it is their playground and tolerate the like mindedness there more than the questions, points and counterpoints they'd get down here.
I don't want to take that up there.
They seem more tolerable when they get disagreement from other Christians rather than disagreement from anything else.

I have noticed over the years that a few (not all) who have visited this forum and who's claims, assertions and points got challenged down here left and continued on with their same claims, assertions and points back up there due to it being an easier crowd. They didn't have to answer up there for the questions they couldn't answer down here. And that is cool. Many of us just stay in our lane.

I will say that I do read the threads up above and there is No Question that they get into some Doozie exhanges....but it is mostly contained to who thinks they have a better understanding of the religion or God because "God" is already assumed and agreed upon to exist overall.

Agreed.
I kind of understand it though. Its alot like family can say things about family that if nonfamily said, punches would immediately get thrown.
I read along upstairs when something looks interesting and its easy to see how the multitudes of denominations are/were created.

 

[oldfella1962]

Agreed.
I kind of understand it though. Its alot like family can say things about family that if nonfamily said, punches would immediately get thrown.
I read along upstairs when something looks interesting and its easy to see how the multitudes of denominations are/were created.

I think every religion that's been around for a while has split into denominations because no matter what you believe in, it will ALWAYS be ran through the unique filter of "yourself" because nobody ever knows exactly what's inside the mind (the unique consciousness) of another person. And with a book so complex and full of stories & ideas as the bible, there are an infinite number of ways to think about it. So when you factor in the sheer number of readers over hundreds of years, I'm amazed there aren't even more denominations than there are.

 

[WaltL1]

I think every religion that's been around for a while has split into denominations because no matter what you believe in, it will ALWAYS be ran through the unique filter of "yourself" because nobody ever knows exactly what's inside the mind (the unique consciousness) of another person. And with a book so complex and full of stories & ideas as the bible, there are an infinite number of ways to think about it. So when you factor in the sheer number of readers over hundreds of years, I'm amazed there aren't even more denominations than there are.

I can agree with you but it still strikes me as "odd" that the supposed word of God is dependent on the readers individual comprehension.
As has been said in here multiple times, surely an omni-everything God could produce something universally understood.
May or may not be "fair" for me to expect that.

 

[oldfella1962]

I can agree with you but it still strikes me as "odd" that the supposed word of God is dependent on the readers individual comprehension.
As has been said in here multiple times, surely an omni-everything God could produce something universally understood.
May or may not be "fair" for me to expect that.

It's very fair & logical to expect that, but the bugaboo is no "faith" is required. But that is an interesting concept - a "god" that requires no faith! Is that some Twilight Zone stuff or what? When you think about it, Adam & Eve didn't need a lick of faith if god literally walked around in the garden and interacted with them to a point.

Anyway about a god who revealed itself to ALL HUMANS in the year 2023 in a way that could be scientifically proven and thus accepted as real:
would that make the terms "natural" and "supernatural" obsolete? If this god explained why it created the world & the universe the way that it did and thus put the kybosh on all other manmade religions would there be a point in worshipping it? If this god said there is no afterlife for humans and that Hitler and your sweet grandmother both meet the same faith and are gone forever, would we worship it? Bottom line would people worship a god who no doubt exists, but does not meet their expectations of what a god should be or how it should behave? Would religious people feel embarrassed because they were duped by their own religions? Would atheists be embarrassed for not believing in any gods? Would much of mankind be ANGERED because god waited so long to reveal itself?
Maybe it would depend on what god's reasons are. Regardless, something to think about.

 

[WaltL1]

It's very fair & logical to expect that, but the bugaboo is no "faith" is required. But that is an interesting concept - a "god" that requires no faith! Is that some Twilight Zone stuff or what? When you think about it, Adam & Eve didn't need a lick of faith if god literally walked around in the garden and interacted with them to a point.

Anyway about a god who revealed itself to ALL HUMANS in the year 2023 in a way that could be scientifically proven and thus accepted as real:
would that make the terms "natural" and "supernatural" obsolete? If this god explained why it created the world & the universe the way that it did and thus put the kybosh on all other manmade religions would there be a point in worshipping it? If this god said there is no afterlife for humans and that Hitler and your sweet grandmother both meet the same faith and are gone forever, would we worship it? Bottom line would people worship a god who no doubt exists, but does not meet their expectations of what a god should be or how it should behave? Would religious people feel embarrassed because they were duped by their own religions? Would atheists be embarrassed for not believing in any gods? Would much of mankind be ANGERED because god waited so long to reveal itself?
Maybe it would depend on what god's reasons are. Regardless, something to think about.

Would atheists be embarrassed for not believing in any gods?

Personally I wouldnt be embarassed at all.
Its pretty rational not to believe something exists until its proven to exist.
I would welcome the answer to one of historys biggest questions.

 

[gemcgrew]

Not a knock against anyone who is a regular above and not in here but it seems that the guys who stay above do it because it is their playground and tolerate the like mindedness there more than the questions, points and counterpoints they'd get down here.
I don't want to take that up there.
They seem more tolerable when they get disagreement from other Christians rather than disagreement from anything else.

I have noticed over the years that a few (not all) who have visited this forum and who's claims, assertions and points got challenged down here left and continued on with their same claims, assertions and points back up there due to it being an easier crowd. They didn't have to answer up there for the questions they couldn't answer down here. And that is cool. Many of us just stay in our lane.

I will say that I do read the threads up above and there is No Question that they get into some Doozie exhanges....but it is mostly contained to who thinks they have a better understanding of the religion or God because "God" is already assumed and agreed upon to exist overall.

There are more Atheists and Agnostics upstairs than down here. The ones upstairs are just more prone to compromise.

 

[Israel]

I can agree with you but it still strikes me as "odd" that the supposed word of God is dependent on the readers individual comprehension.
As has been said in here multiple times, surely an omni-everything God could produce something universally understood.
May or may not be "fair" for me to expect that.

I don't know that it's ever a not good thing for a man to question his own sense of fairness.

Can it really stand the test of the balance?

 

[brutally honest]

Not a knock against anyone who is a regular above and not in here but it seems that the guys who stay above do it because it is their playground and tolerate the like mindedness there more than the questions, points and counterpoints they'd get down here.
I don't want to take that up there.
They seem more tolerable when they get disagreement from other Christians rather than disagreement from anything else.

A lot of Christians (like me) are just not that interested in apologetics. I love to fish, but I have zero interest in trolling — just not my thing.

FWIW, this forum does seem to have really good discussions. Upstairs, there are a lot of lectures and stream-of-consciousness theology, but good discussions are few and far between.

 

[oldfella1962]

A lot of Christians (like me) are just not that interested in apologetics. I love to fish, but I have zero interest in trolling — just not my thing.

FWIW, this forum does seem to have really good discussions. Upstairs, there are a lot of lectures and stream-of-consciousness theology, but good discussions are few and far between.

I understand that you aren't interested in trolling, but just giving your opinion or asking questions isn't necessarily trolling, just a starting point for discussions IMHO.