Is our faith based on evidence?

[SemperFiDawg]

Background: There were a couple of posts earlier in the week that kinda stuck in my craw so-to-speak. One was from a believer and the other was from an athiest/agnostic, astonishingly both held the same position that our faith isn't based on proof, but is essentially blind faith. This is not the first time I've heard this from believers. It's a fairly commonly held assumption by Christians. I've heard it time and time again, that faith, reeeal faith, true faith, is faith without evidence: How often have your heard, "I'm just gonna step out on faith" implying one is stepping off the edge of an abyss and expecting to not to fall? Anyone ever not heard that?

That's not the definition of faith as I understand it. I don't think that's the picture of faith that any mature Christian lives by. My faith and I hope your faith is based on evidence. If it's not I have to wonder, "Why believe it?"
Hebrews 11:1 specifically states what faith is: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." "Substance" and "evidence" imply very concrete concepts. It's the exact opposite of acceptance of a truth despite any evidence.

These is my personal opinion on the matter. I may certainly be mistaken, but this is my understanding on the matter based on my own experience and what I have witnessed in every single conversion I have ever witnessed or spoken to people about. I think initially when we are first saved the Holy Spirit impresses upon, reveals, to each of us his presence and verifies the accuracy and the truth of scripture. In short God says to us, I'm here, and this(scripture) is true. I don't think any two of our experiences are alike. I think he gives us individually, exactly what we need at that moment to believe. It's so deeply personal there's no denying it. It makes a deep and indelible impression on the conscience of the individual to the point the person can never deny it's authenticity. In short, the experience is sealed into that persons memory forever. THAT is evidence. THAT is substance. That is Hebrews 11:1. That's my understanding of faith.

One aside. I think a huge mistake we as churches and individuals make is to take our personal experience and say this must be how God does it for everyone else, or the more grave mistake of becoming dogmatic about it and say, "This is how God must do it for everyone else." He's God. He can do it any way he wants from a burning bush, a talking donkey, telling a woman about her husbands over a drink of water, or hanging on a cross and touching the heart of a man hanging beside him. That man was never baptized, never spoke in tongues, never even made a public proclamation of his faith, yet he is the only person on the face of the earth Christ told he would see in Heaven. Maybe it would be wise bear that in mind before we become dogmatic about
what God HAS to do, and how He HAS to do it. Just my opinion. Would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Waddams]

Evidence: The gospels are similar to the sworn witness statements we give today. It's the author's writing down what they saw and experienced. If there wasn't enough of a public agreement that they are accurate by enough other people of the time that experienced and saw the same events, the writings would not have survived. It doesn't just come from the apostles or the people that wrote down the apostles accounts. It was them, plus all the other thousands of people that saw it all for themselves, read the writings, and agreed, yup that's right.

Same can be said of some of the other writings cobbled together into our Bible today - Kings / Chronicles, the historical writings. Parts of Daniel's prophecies that are fulfilled were fulfilled with perfect accuracy long after his death.

God (the Father) can't interact with us directly without the holiness of His presence destroying the sin it comes into contact with, including destroying us. When someone asks some form of "Why doesn't God reveal himself?" meaning why doesn't he appear Himself right now directly, the answer is because he doesn't want to kill us. That's why he sent God (the Son) and then God (the Holy Spirt) instead to try to shepherd us to redemption.

He inspired people in the past to write down their experiences to pass on to future generations so that those of us that have an open heart and mind to it, and the eyes to see and ears to hear, can get to know him through the word instead.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Evidence: The gospels are similar to the sworn witness statements we give today.

I get what you are saying and don't disagree, but (playing the Devils advocate) we have all seen perjury and falsely sworn affidavits. Would you base the most precious thing you own, your life and soul, on 2000 year old documents or is there a personal spiritual experience that you have experienced that has galvanized your faith. Just trying to steer the topic in that direction instead of a discussion on the historical accuracy of scripture.

I'll use my own experience as an example of what I'm looking for.
At the age of 12 or 13 I had a deeply spiritual experience. I was really searching for Christ, whether he was real, and just trying to understand and come to grips with what I was being told and had read in the Gospels. I had been in prayer on it for probably weeks or months looking back. This experience was completely out of the blue. I was getting dressed in the bathroom of the church changing into my swimming trunks getting ready to be baptized, literally in the process of changing clothes .(Now I get that ideally this may have been a little premature, in that I didn't have but a tacit acknowledgement Christ so maybe being baptized was a hair premature, but I had accepted Him even though I was only superficially and intellectually aware of what that meant. Also, then as now, a teenager doesn't accept Christ without all efforts made to dunk him post haste.)

Regardless, All of a sudden it happened. I really don't know how to explain it. It was like I was swept into another realm or a curtain had been pulled back from in front of me and I could see spiritually what it was all about. There was a living presence there, Christ or the Holy Spirit, that was not visible. It was revealed to me with crystal clarity what I can only describe as the Kingdom of Heaven. It wasn't visual, it was experiential. I could suddenly comprehend, understand every aspect of it and how it all worked, fit together. It was strikingly glorious in it's depth and breadth, yet beautiful in it's simplicity. I felt, I don't know, euphoric to the nth degree would be an understatement. I didn't want it to end. I didn't want to leave and come back into the physical. I knew instinctively I was in God's presence, and then at some point it ended. I don't know if it lasted for minutes or just moments. It was as if time passed but didn't. It was like being outside of time's limitation and being able to see into eternity. It's been 44 years and I still can't describe it.

Emerging from it there was no doubt in my mind that God existed, Christ was my savior, everything in the Bible was not only true, but didn't come close to describing the Kingdom of Heaven. Everything made complete sense and I came to realize there is a spiritual existence that encompasses the physical existence in which we are confined that is beyond comprehension in both depth, breadth and glory. I've have had other spiritual experiences throughout my life, felt the presence of the Holy Ghost, but none have been of that essence. If I had to describe it succinctly in a word or two, it would be revelatory and conformational. The revelation confirmed to me all I stated above. It was an experiential encounter that I couldn't/can't deny if my life depended on it. That's the evidence my faith is based on. I don't expect anyone else's to be like mine, but I do think everyone has one that they can count as their proof. That's the gist of my original post, "Is your faith based on personal proof, and if so would you share it?"

 

[formula1]

Not one of us has ever seen the wind but we know it is there because we see a leaf moving along the ground or smoke blowing with it. You know the wind by the result it produces!

So it is with faith. You know it by the result it produces in you through God whom you do not see. It becomes in those who experience it most genuine.

 

[Waddams]

I get what you are saying and don't disagree, but (playing the Devils advocate) we have all seen perjury and falsely sworn affidavits. Would you base the most precious thing you own, your life and soul, on 2000 year old documents or is there a personal spiritual experience that you have experienced that has galvanized your faith. Just trying to steer the topic in that direction instead of a discussion on the historical accuracy of scripture.

Responding to the bolded section - definitely, 2 in particular first person, and 1 more that was relayed to me by someone that experienced it firsthand.

My own:
-When my grandmother passed. I was in the room with a bunch of other family. I'll just say I felt the presence of what came into that room to take her spirit, it was pure love and comfort. She was a strong Christian believer (Protestant - Southern Baptist). She got something right in her life.

-Then an experience at a night of worship at my church where the Spirit directly slapped some sense into me. Would be a very long explanation for the background of what led to it but I'm blessed to have received it and life has been immensely better ever since.

Relayed to me:
-My dad the way he tells it is that when he was in Vietnam, middle of a fire fight, carrying a wounded comrade back to his own line, he has a VC pop out of the bush 5 ft from him. They both empty their magazines at each other. His burst goes from nuts to chin into the poor guy, full magazine from his CAR15. The other guy's burst hits my dad twice in the chest, spins him around and knocks him down. He's laying there thinking "well, I'm done." and he hears a voice in his head, not his own, say "Get up, you're not going to die here today". This was in 1968 near the end of the Tet Offensive. He got up, picked up the wounded comrade with the arm that still worked, limped back to his own line, got a bit of field dressing, the put a plastic sheet under a compression bandage on the holes in his chest to reinflate a punctured lung, and stayed in the fight with one good arm until relief showed up. He's 77 today, living in Virginia Beach, VA with one lung that works and a documented case of penetrating heart trauma where they found year's later during a medical procedure about 20 years ago now that his heart had scars on the outside and a hole between 2 chambers (scars and hole all in a line) from where one of the bullets passed through. He believes the Spirit spoke to him and saved him. He ended up getting saved not long after he was back stateside. It's hard for me to not take that really seriously.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Responding to the bolded section - definitely, 2 in particular first person, and 1 more that was relayed to me by someone that experienced it firsthand.

My own:
-When my grandmother passed. I was in the room with a bunch of other family. I'll just say I felt the presence of what came into that room to take her spirit, it was pure love and comfort. She was a strong Christian believer (Protestant - Southern Baptist). She got something right in her life.

-Then an experience at a night of worship at my church where the Spirit directly slapped some sense into me. Would be a very long explanation for the background of what led to it but I'm blessed to have received it and life has been immensely better ever since.

Relayed to me:
-My dad the way he tells it is that when he was in Vietnam, middle of a fire fight, carrying a wounded comrade back to his own line, he has a VC pop out of the bush 5 ft from him. They both empty their magazines at each other. His burst goes from nuts to chin into the poor guy, full magazine from his CAR15. The other guy's burst hits my dad twice in the chest, spins him around and knocks him down. He's laying there thinking "well, I'm done." and he hears a voice in his head, not his own, say "Get up, you're not going to die here today". This was in 1968 near the end of the Tet Offensive. He got up, picked up the wounded comrade with the arm that still worked, limped back to his own line, got a bit of field dressing, the put a plastic sheet under a compression bandage on the holes in his chest to reinflate a punctured lung, and stayed in the fight with one good arm until relief showed up. He's 77 today, living in Virginia Beach, VA with one lung that works and a documented case of penetrating heart trauma where they found year's later during a medical procedure about 20 years ago now that his heart had scars on the outside and a hole between 2 chambers (scars and hole all in a line) from where one of the bullets passed through. He believes the Spirit spoke to him and saved him. He ended up getting saved not long after he was back stateside. It's hard for me to not take that really seriously.

Good stuff. Like I said Brother. All of those are the kinds of personal proof that are experientially more solid to us than a cinder block. To beat a dead horse. It's not blind faith.

 

[Waddams]

Good stuff. Like I said Brother. All of those are the kinds of personal proof that are experientially more solid to us than a cinder block. To beat a dead horse. It's not blind faith.

Yup. Things like my dad's story, I relate that to similar to the author's of the gospels - to them it was just as powerful an experience as what my dad went through. Those writings are much more than 2000 year old words on paper when you really start to think about it. If you can put yourself into a mindset that accepts those are the words of people that experienced first hand the events described, then relate it to people you know telling stories, it just becomes more powerful.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'm not sure that "substance" and "evidence" are the correct words to use in Hebrews 11: 1.
Maybe "assurance" and "conviction." I think our faith is that conviction. We are certain of it by our faith, not evidence. It's real and it's there but we can't see all of it yet because we are looking through a dim glass. It hasn't all been revealed.

Romans 8:24
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?

I wanted to add that because love, faith, hope, belief, and trust are all intermingled so to speak.

Maybe faith gives us the hope to believe? In that way, our faith is our evidence. It's not based on the what we can see.

 

[groundhawg]

Is our faith based on evidence? Well no. If it was it would not be faith.​

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Is our faith based on evidence? Well no. If it was it would not be faith.​

So you have no reason to believe what you believe?

 

[bullgator]

One of the definitions of faith is the belief in something you can not prove.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I'm not sure that "substance" and "evidence" are the correct words to use in Hebrews 11: 1.
Maybe "assurance" and "conviction." I think our faith is that conviction. We are certain of it by our faith, not evidence. It's real and it's there but we can't see all of it yet because we are looking through a dim glass. It hasn't all been revealed.

Romans 8:24
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?

I wanted to add that because love, faith, hope, belief, and trust are all intermingled so to speak.

Maybe faith gives us the hope to believe? In that way, our faith is our evidence. It's not based on the what we can see.

Just pulled it from the KJV because it’s probably the most universally accepted. I’m sure other translations may use slightly different words. I’m not sure if the context or intent is altered. I suppose it could be depending on the translation. There’s only about seventeen eleventeen different ones out there.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

One of the definitions of faith is the belief in something you can not prove.

I get that and it’s true, but being unable to prove something in no way implies there is a lack of proof/evidence. In fact our individual experiences that form our strongest personal foundations of reality, of self preservation, of the value of human life are mostly unprovable to others. Does this mean we form them without proof/evidence? Of course not. That’s absurd.

If I touch a hot burner I experience pain. You can’t experience my pain and there’s no way for me to help you to experience it so I can’t PROVE TO YOU. that it’s real. However I, on the other hand, have undeniable evidence/proof that pain exists. The experience is my evidence. I have unshakable faith, based on proof/evidence, yet I can’t prove it. Spiritual experiences are exactly the same. They are just as unprovable as one’s pain, at the same time being just as grounded in proof and evidence. So yes faith is believing in something one can’t prove (to others), yet it is entirely evidence based for the individual displaying it.

 

[groundhawg]

So you have no reason to believe what you believe?

Nope.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Nope.

Oooookaaaaay then. If you tell me you have no reason to believe what you believe, out of curiosity I have to ask. Does this just apply to faith/religion or to all of your conclusions regarding anything/everything? How do you chose? Do you have a system? Do you just roll the dice? Are you beliefs static or do they change and if so based on what. I’m not being facetious, I’m just fascinated by the statement that you have no reason to believe what you believe. I honestly didn’t know that was possible and I’m still not sure it is. I just can’t wrap my head around that. Please…..explain this to me?

 

[B. White]

Folks use the words faith and religion in ways that I might not, and sometimes interchangeably with their own definitions. I'll try to define my simple definitions, in case others have may use these words differently.

Faith - believing something.
Hope - I think something can happen.

For the purpose of this discussion I believe there is a God. Creation is all around and it is not logical to me that there can be things made without a Maker. For me, it is not possible to believe things were created out of nothing. It makes no sense to me and I haven't seen or heard any evidence to convince me to doubt my belief.

I also believe God will do what he says he will do. This belief gets stronger as I get older, which is only natural as I have seen more evidence every year as I age. This isn't some strange, complicated mystical belief to me. I believe you will reap what you sow the same as I do that gravity exists today just like it did yesterday. Ignoring either one might not end well for me.

So for me, yes faith is based on evidence. Your level of faith would (or should) change throughout life, if you are observant and aware of what is going on around you.

 

[groundhawg]

Oooookaaaaay then. If you tell me you have no reason to believe what you believe, out of curiosity I have to ask. Does this just apply to faith/religion or to all of your conclusions regarding anything/everything? How do you chose? Do you have a system? Do you just roll the dice? Are you beliefs static or do they change and if so based on what. I’m not being facetious, I’m just fascinated by the statement that you have no reason to believe what you believe. I honestly didn’t know that was possible and I’m still not sure it is. I just can’t wrap my head around that. Please…..explain this to me?

Explain...why? You never seem to listen or accept anything anyone saids unless it suits you.

 

[brutally honest]

Explain...why? You never seem to listen or accept anything anyone saids unless it suits you.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Explain...why? You never seem to listen or accept anything anyone saids unless it suits you.

I asked for you to explain it and expressed a desire to listen and understand, yet you say I don’t listen unless I agree. How can I agree or disagree when in don’t understand it?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Folks use the words faith and religion in ways that I might not, and sometimes interchangeably with their own definitions. I'll try to define my simple definitions, in case others have may use these words differently.

Faith - believing something.
Hope - I think something can happen.

For the purpose of this discussion I believe there is a God. Creation is all around and it is not logical to me that there can be things made without a Maker. For me, it is not possible to believe things were created out of nothing. It makes no sense to me and I haven't seen or heard any evidence to convince me to doubt my belief.

I also believe God will do what he says he will do. This belief gets stronger as I get older, which is only natural as I have seen more evidence every year as I age. This isn't some strange, complicated mystical belief to me. I believe you will reap what you sow the same as I do that gravity exists today just like it did yesterday. Ignoring either one might not end well for me.

So for me, yes faith is based on evidence. Your level of faith would (or should) change throughout life, if you are observant and aware of what is going on around you.

Good stuff Brother.