What does Paul mean by "we shall be saved by his life".

[gordon 2]

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconcliled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:10

Paul seems to be distinguishing between two things here. For the cross we were reconciled to God and our salvation is by the life of the Son.

Or in my words, (according to my words and understanding,) we are forgiven of our sinful nature by the Cross and the resurection, but we are saved by the life of Jesus.

Paul continues in chapter Romans 6:10 " For in that he died, he did unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

So again in my words, it is by Jesus' example, the spiritual aspect of it, in recorded words and deeds, in the relationships and the communications with the people around him that we are saved!

Jesus, his life, is the example of what it is to live according to the Father and all that flows from Him and it is this and for this similar relationship that we as well can live that we are saved.

So our salvation is not the cross. The cross is our redemption--and our hope of ressurection. Our salvation is the life that Jesus lived.

Now if this is so...then we are are twisting our great commissions concerning salvation....???

Ideas...???

 

[centerpin fan]

Man's problem is death: "... you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ." Col. 2:13

Jesus conquered death. As we sing every Easter,

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!

 

[centerpin fan]

Now if this is so...then we are are twisting our great commissions concerning salvation....???

How so?

 

[formula1]

Re:

God did the work of reconciliation in Christ on the cross before we could receive it (Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.).
When we come to Christ (Romans 10:9-10), we are saved as a result of the redemptive work. That is a guarantee! Now, as that work is completed in our time and space and borders, how much more will it be possible for Christ to live His life through us as we 'die'. It never is 'we' or 'us' though, it is always 'Him'. "We' and 'us' were nailed to the cross in Him!

Salvation, redemption, life, our hope of resurrrection are all wrapped up in Jesus Christ!

 

[gordon 2]

How so?

The Great Commission is to get people saved for example. More than not we ask people to believe onto Jesus and be saved, but the Jesus Saviour that is presented is the Jesus of the Cross who died for our sins... for we are all sinners.

When I read Romans I find that Paul says we are saved because of the life Jesus lived, a life lived with God the father. This is our salvation. We are reconciled for the sacrefice on the cross and the resurection, but we are saved for the life that Jesus lived. It is therefore from that life lived, from that ministry we must find the source and the the example for our salvation.

But I might be reading it all wrong...

In otherwords we have been concentrating salvation in what Paul says reconciled. It seems Paul makes a distiction between the two....

For the cross we are saved and always saved is perhaps spiritually incorrect. Paul says for the life that Jesus lived we are saved, if we chose to live in like manner.

 

[StriperAddict]

Now, as that work is completed in our time and space and borders, how much more will it be possible for Christ to live His life through us as we 'die'. It never is 'we' or 'us' though, it is always 'Him'. "We' and 'us' were nailed to the cross in Him!

Salvation, redemption, life, our hope of resurrrection are all wrapped up in Jesus Christ!

Well said.
This is such a critical part of the gospel that understanding it more fully has been a goal of mine lately.
When we understand that we have died to ourselves (as our point of reference, along with the death to the power of sin and the law), we are free to see the life of Christ within us is sufficent to carry the day. Faith is the bridge that takes the "us" out of the equation and allows us to reckon it so... "Christ in you, the hope of glory", and we see the Lord live thru us, as us.
Getting this sacred ground into the soul is a liberation I pray all believers would fully know in their hearts.

Colossians 2:10a
10: and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. (NIV)
10: and you are complete in Him (KJV)
10: and ye are in him made full (Young's literal)

 

[gordon 2]

God did the work of reconciliation in Christ on the cross before we could receive it (Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.).
When we come to Christ (Romans 10:9-10), we are saved as a result of the redemptive work. That is a guarantee! Now, as that work is completed in our time and space and borders, how much more will it be possible for Christ to live His life through us as we 'die'. It never is 'we' or 'us' though, it is always 'Him'. "We' and 'us' were nailed to the cross in Him!

Salvation, redemption, life, our hope of resurrrection are all wrapped up in Jesus Christ!

So are you saying that "his life" means His life through us?

"but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God." Does not this mean his life, as in his ministry, his parables, his healings, his patience, his miracles, his sermons, his interactions, his teachings, that were "lived unto God"? And if so are we not saved for these after we are reconciled for the cross? In other words, we are saved for "The Way"...knowing full well that even reconciled by the Spirit to God we can still chose it or not...

In Romans Paul cautions us that we are no longer sinners if we chose salvation from the example of the life of Christ.

"Chapter 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. " Paul previous to this chapter has explained his understanding of what it is to be "after the flesh". And it is my understanding that it is not the flesh that must die, but the spirit of it must change.

We are free to chose that walk or not, even if we accept the Atonement. The acceptance of the atonement is what most "saved" christians go by, yet forego the walk that was the life Paul talks about....

Chapter 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The way I read this is that though we are reconciled to God for the cross, to believe in Jesus is to believe in his life and his ministry and to walk it so that things will change...not only the nature of man, but the nature of life itself.

Chapter 5: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Again: Romans 5 10 "Being reconciled , we shall be saved by his life."

 

[gordon 2]

Well said.
This is such a critical part of the gospel that understanding it more fully has been a goal of mine lately.
When we understand that we have died to ourselves (as our point of reference, along with the death to the power of sin and the law), we are free to see the life of Christ within us is sufficent to carry the day. Faith is the bridge that takes the "us" out of the equation and allows us to reckon it so... "Christ in you, the hope of glory", and we see the Lord live thru us, as us.
Getting this sacred ground into the soul is a liberation I pray all believers would fully know in their hearts.

Colossians 2:10a
10: and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. (NIV)
10: and you are complete in Him (KJV)
10: and ye are in him made full (Young's literal)

Yes, but can you explain who the "Christ in you" is? Where do you get him from? Having died to your "corruptible man" as Paul says, from where do you get the Christ you claim lives true you. If it is from The Cross are you forever dieing to corruptions, and define yourself as a sinner and if it is from the life of Christ, the saintly life he lived before he was crucified, are you living beyond corruptions? Which Christ lives thru you?

It seems to me that fullness here is a fullness gained from life in the Spirit. The spiritual effort is not to die, but to live. Christ died for us once and for all....now it is His life that must save us. And not the life we might claim Jesus lives trough us, but from this the life that was his real sandles on the cobblestone .

If we are reconciled to God via the Atonement, do we now need to live or do we now need to die? Should the concerns of saints be life or death?

 

[centerpin fan]

The Great Commission is to get people saved for example. More than not we ask people to believe onto Jesus and be saved, but the Jesus Saviour that is presented is the Jesus of the Cross who died for our sins... for we are all sinners.

When I read Romans I find that Paul says we are saved because of the life Jesus lived, a life lived with God the father. This is our salvation. We are reconciled for the sacrefice on the cross and the resurection, but we are saved for the life that Jesus lived. It is therefore from that life lived, from that ministry we must find the source and the the example for our salvation.

I don't think you're reading it wrong. I just think you need to keep reading. Paul explains himself pretty well in Romans 6:


1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

 

[formula1]

Great posts CP and SA! And Gordon, you are definately on the right track with the phrase 'Life in the Spirit'.

May I add the following for you all to peruse and consider:

Romans 7
1 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

Consider verse 1-3 like this:
You are the married woman, bound to sin(husband).
If you husband dies, you are released from the legal requirement.
If you husband does not die and you try to live with another, you will be a adulteress.
If sin is dead, the new man, Christ, is free now to join with you and to live His life in you.

This is effectively the work of Christ, to for lack of a better term, changes us from slaves of sin, to slaves of righteousness.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

This is a great discussion and I thank all of you!

 

[1gr8bldr]

"Saved by his life"-------Gal 2:20 gives insight, "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."

 

[1gr8bldr]

I don't think you're reading it wrong. I just think you need to keep reading. Paul explains himself pretty well in Romans 6:


1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

good post

 

[StriperAddict]

Gordon, the verses quoted by F1 go towards answering your response post, but I'll add more scripture & thoughts soon.

I agree this is one great thread to discuss!

 

[gordon 2]

Gordon, the verses quoted by F1 go towards answering your response post, but I'll add more scripture & thoughts soon.

I agree this is one great thread to discuss!

Ok thanks. If F1's is close to your response and if your busy don't get out of your way.... I'm good. But if you can add go for it...

I don't want to go all over the place in this tread, but this sort of interests me...and I wonder where this idea is from? Quote""Christ in you, the hope of glory", and we see the Lord live thru us, as us.

 

[gordon 2]

Great posts CP and SA! And Gordon, you are definately on the right track with the phrase 'Life in the Spirit'.

May I add the following for you all to peruse and consider:

Romans 7
1 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

Consider verse 1-3 like this:
You are the married woman, bound to sin(husband).
If you husband dies, you are released from the legal requirement.
If you husband does not die and you try to live with another, you will be a adulteress.
If sin is dead, the new man, Christ, is free now to join with you and to live His life in you.

This is effectively the work of Christ, to for lack of a better term, changes us from slaves of sin, to slaves of righteousness.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

This is a great discussion and I thank all of you!

This is effectively the work of Christ, to for lack of a better term, changes us from slaves of sin, to slaves of righteousness.

So we are slaves to righteousness because for the atonement we serve in a "new way of the Spirit".

If this is so then why would Christ need send the Holy Spirit after this the cross and the resurection?

If I understand, which I might not be, what you are saying or meaning to say is that when Paul says " much more, being reconcliled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:10" is that this is meant as his resurected life...in us and not his life and ministry before the atonement? Having died in Christ, believing that Jesus Savior died for our sins and we are no more corruptable?

 

[gordon 2]

Ok, I just got a hold of a the Amplified Bible, just because it was handy and I know it would have an intro. to Romans.

This is what is listed in the introduction.

"1.The content of Romans is centered on the theme of God's revelation of righteousness. 2. Evident is the fact that Jews and Gentiles alike are unrighteous sinners in need of salvation. 3. In the person of Jesus Christ is revealed the perfect righeousness. 4. Through the death and resurection of Christ , the provision has been made for men to obtain this righteousness through faith. 5. Divine power to enable man to live in accordance with this righteousness is imparted through the Holy Spirit."[ End Quote.]

When I read Paul I read that in Christ, in the person of Christ, is our salvation because he is our model of perfect righeousness ( to use the intro's words here). Faith in Christ and his righteousness ( which is from the Father) is my salvation.

The death and resurection here( in the introduction) is said to be a provision, which Paul say provides for reconciliation, but we must chose to have faith or relationship in and with the perfect model which is in the life of Christ. We have no need to die and die and die to corruptions to be deemed acceptable. We cannot any longer define ourselves as sinner.

We died once and were born again. For the Holy Spirit through the model or life of Christ we can only live, live and live more fully.... we can only go forward in grace and this grace broadcasted to overtake all corruption, all of death. In this way the Kingdom is not only in the individual heart, but also the spiritual material of a people who can change the world.

??/? No???

 

[formula1]

"1.The content of Romans is centered on the theme of God's revelation of righteousness. 2. Evident is the fact that Jews and Gentiles alike are unrighteous sinners in need of salvation. 3. In the person of Jesus Christ is revealed the perfect righeousness. 4. Through the death and resurection of Christ , the provision has been made for men to obtain this righteousness through faith. 5. Divine power to enable man to live in accordance with this righteousness is imparted through the Holy Spirit."[ End Quote.]

When I read Paul I read that in Christ, in the person of Christ, is our salvation because he is our model of perfect righeousness ( to use the intro's words here). Faith in Christ and his righteousness ( which is from the Father) is my salvation.

The death and resurection here( in the introduction) is said to be a provision, which Paul say provides for reconciliation, but we must chose to have faith or relationship in and with the perfect model which is in the life of Christ. We have no need to die and die and die to corruptions to be deemed acceptable. We cannot any longer define ourselves as sinner.

We died once and were born again. For the Holy Spirit through the model or life of Christ we can only live, live and live more fully.... we can only go forward in grace and this grace broadcased to overtake all corruption, all of death. In this way the Kingdom is not only in the individual heart, but also the spiritual material of a people who can change the world.

??/? No???

I like it Gordon pretty much as you have stated and the amplified as described.

As Paul has said, I see it as I must die daily (meaning to my daily flesh life and will) in order for the Holy Spirit to live, live, live through me in the righteousness of Christ. There is a self-will that must die, i.e. the constant battle of flesh and Spirit. It is done in Christ though by faith.

1 Corinthians 15:31
I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Romans 7
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!...

I am quite sure that if enough folks walked in th Spirit in unity, it would indeed turn the world upside down! Yet, it may not look like you or I envision. But God's witness before man would be complete!

 

[Ronnie T]

Gordon, I think you're on it now.

We often incorrectly state that everything rests on Jesus' death and the shedding of His blood. But it has to go much much further than that.
Remember, we have a living Savior. And that is the hallmark of our existence. He is our intercessor, the head of the church, and much more.

Paul's letter to the Romans provides us all the answers.

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Jesus' death brought us to God.
Jesus' resurrected life will carry us into eternal heaven.

*Paul uses chap 1 thru 3 to make it clear that every single person, Jew or Gentile, stands condemned because of their sins.
Then in chap 3 Paul begins talking about sinners being justified through their belief, faith, trust, in Jesus as their Savior(Christ).

.......chap 5 begins this way: 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand

then verse 10 again: 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

I think it's John 14:9 that Jesus says: Because I live, you shall also live.

 

[StriperAddict]

... Faith in Christ and his righteousness ( which is from the Father) is my salvation.

The death and resurection here( in the introduction) is said to be a provision, which Paul say provides for reconciliation, but we must chose to have faith or relationship in and with the perfect model which is in the life of Christ. We have no need to die and die and die to corruptions to be deemed acceptable. We cannot any longer define ourselves as sinner.

Agreed, and this is a tough one to reckon so, when it seems we often turn back to our "old tapes", or old false beliefs we once used to survive in the world. But this cannot change the inner spiritual man, who was bought and set free by the Perfect Man, "in whom we live, and move and have our being". Considering ourselves dead to sin and alive to God gives us the freedom to make faith choices, as we see Christ, living through us, with our human weakness and all. (Power is perfected in weakness, a subject for another thread.) As we abide and draw close to Jesus, we gain from the Holy Spirit within us the help to make these faith choices and no longer rely on our fleshly strength and abilities to serve the Lord. This allows the life of Christ to live through us. And AS us.

The "AS us" quote recently tripped me up, until I heard of some teaching on the work of Christ.

Would any be surprised if it was said that Christ Himself never did any work (of Himself)?

Would it surprise you to hear Jesus say the work that He did was not His? Or the words that He spoke were not of His own?

Consider the words of Jesus in John's gospel:

John 9:4
I must work the works of Him that sent me.

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

John 10:37
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me.

John 14:7-11 The Father Revealed... in Christ:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-26672">7</sup> “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-26673">8</sup> Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-26674">9</sup> Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-26675">10</sup> Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-26676">11</sup> Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

If we see that Christ's life was that of the Father living through Him, speaking AS him, doing the work of God the Father AS Him, we have the "pattern" by faith of Christ in us, as us, doing His work (yes, the very work of His Father), and we can be and live at rest. This 'rest' is not just our heaven when we depart our physical bodies in death, but the rest that is described in Hebrews:
Hebrews 4:9
There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

Hebrews 4:10
For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Imagine that! By believing, we have "ceased from "OUR" works", as we see Him do His work through us!

No longer is the killing of our humanity a valiant cause, no longer is the counsel of the world our friend, no longer the power of sin can corrupt our inner man.

John 15:15 As a disciple, I am a friend of Jesus Christ.

I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

This is powerful, liberating truth, that right now we are a "friend of God" like our "father of faith" Abraham was. This kicks the "law of sin and death" to the ground and in it's place we live by His life, the resurrected life of Him who can never die again. And we share in that same promise, as we see His work through us.


I'm sorry if I've covered too many points on this topic, but there's so much to it that speak to the "Christ in 'us' the hope of Glory".
I confess I'm very much still the student, sitting at the Master's feet and asking for clarity as I consider the entire topic. But this I know, the indwelling Lord Jesus is my entire life, and this I consider so by faith.

Colossians 2:9-10 We are (I am) complete in Christ...
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

 

[gordon 2]

AWESOME replies! You guys are killing me. No wait you guys are "aliving" me.

OK...So Christ in us, our works in Christ and Christ our introduction into the new life of grace. How and where do we get more of Christ and more of grace in our lives and works?

How does the Holy Spirit, (what is His desire? and how do we know it), that we chose this as grace and not that, and choseing Christ as our perfect model we chose this of God and man and not that?

Or put another way how do we make choices, do works, live, pray from the incorruptable, abide, etc.? Where are we "in-formed" so we can be formed to works of rightiousness?

Why would one disciple say murderers are to hang and another say death in this case is no remedy? Why would one say faith and not works. Is one taking from the well of life and the other the well of death, is the perfect model Jesus the same for both? and both all the time accounting for "Jesus in us"?



How can this be so? Is the Holy Spirit a person of grace and favor that for all having died to corruption in the slaying and ressurection of Jesus, yet all are not given the same model and the same God?

The disciple that has the Kingdom in his heart but not the Kingdom in this life and the desciple that has the Kingdom for this life in his heart do they have the same God? even or having both "Christ in us"?

We cannot account for these differences as our falls in the flesh for we are not slaves to it for the Lord, for the Cross, for the Life of Jesus. So what account do we have?

This Christ we have, when we eat and drink at his table, do we sip or drink full bottles of his wine? When we break bread do we take from the basket for what others will need, or our needs?

So where do we get manners? and where do we take care of our selves? Many times I find our manners are no different than when we were to sin and the spirits of sin. So for some is our Father slack and for others a govenor of fear? that grace is formed different in one disciple and different again in an other?

What is the perfection of our model? What does scripture say?