What does Paul mean by "we shall be saved by his life".

[Ronnie T]

Great stuff.

 

[StriperAddict]

Gordon, thee asketh muchly, and akin to scholarly investigation of providence, which bringeth spiritual refreshment.
(Sorry, I sometimes go all "King James" when a subject has my undivided attention ! )

Your questions, to me, can be summed up with your last...

What is the perfection of our model? What does scripture say?

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

My answer to your question, based on this scripture, is daily dependency on the Lord's providence (mercy and grace).

Now, how I go about that, might be as different as night and day to another believer's walk with Christ. It would be an injustice to put out any 'rules' along the answer to that, because in the end, "law" will always trip us up... whether it's the law of sin and death, or other laws or "rules" we might cling to, to help our feet not get caught in the traps of the enemy of our souls. I will say this, studying the word of God and comitting it to both memory and also trust that the same Holy Spirit who inspired scripture, would at given times of His choosing, bring the Word (who is Christ Himself!) to bear on ALL circumstances and situations. But I am far from there, this type of "outward perfection" we are discussing!
Paul puts it plainly that this is a goal of the life of faith for everyone...

Ephesians 4:13
till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Also...
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Can any "law" really bring us to a perfect man? Never, but it is His work, not ours, that we humbly submit to, for Christ Himself (by His perfect Spirit within) to be free to live through us. Cooperation is key as we renew our minds from the old life (Paul says "I die daily") and cling to the truth God says about our New Life within.

Philippians 3:12
[ Pressing Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

 

[formula1]

Re:

Can any "law" really bring us to a perfect man? Never, but it is His work, not ours, that we humbly submit to, for Christ Himself (by His perfect Spirit within) to be free to live through us. Cooperation is key as we renew our minds from the old life (Paul says "I die daily") and cling to the truth God says about our New Life within.

StriperAddict, thanks for summing it up so well. It keeps me from having to type a response to my dear brother in Christ G2!

 

[gtparts]

God did the work of reconciliation in Christ on the cross before we could receive it (Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.).
When we come to Christ (Romans 10:9-10), we are saved as a result of the redemptive work. That is a guarantee! Now, as that work is completed in our time and space and borders, how much more will it be possible for Christ to live His life through us as we 'die'. It never is 'we' or 'us' though, it is always 'Him'. "We' and 'us' were nailed to the cross in Him!

Salvation, redemption, life, our hope of resurrrection are all wrapped up in Jesus Christ!

Well said.
This is such a critical part of the gospel that understanding it more fully has been a goal of mine lately.
When we understand that we have died to ourselves (as our point of reference, along with the death to the power of sin and the law), we are free to see the life of Christ within us is sufficent to carry the day. Faith is the bridge that takes the "us" out of the equation and allows us to reckon it so... "Christ in you, the hope of glory", and we see the Lord live thru us, as us.
Getting this sacred ground into the soul is a liberation I pray all believers would fully know in their hearts.

Colossians 2:10a
10: and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. (NIV)
10: and you are complete in Him (KJV)
10: and ye are in him made full (Young's literal)

All this is true and well said,.... however, gordon 2's question has a more simple explanation.

Jesus' death on the cross paid our sin debt. It was not necessary for Him to be resurrected to accomplish this. His death alone was enough to cover our sin. That much was complete. We (those who are saved) receive reconciliation to God by that act alone. But, reconciliation is an accounting term that says the account is balanced, that we are "square". Had Jesus not been resurrected, then it would be possible to have our account balanced (a zero sum) and still be dead. If Christ remained in the tomb, then the only thing we could say is that when we die our spiritual estate will not have a "negative balance". Jesus balanced our account!

It is by Jesus' resurrection that we have the assurance of eternal life, our resurrection after we depart this life.

I strongly recommend "Be Right", by Warren W. Wiersbe. Frankly, he explains things far better than I do.

In part, Wiersbe writes:
Jesus Christ wrote us into His will, and He wrote the will with his blood. "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:20) He died so the will would be in force; but then He arose from the dead and returned to heaven that He might enforce the will Himself and distribute the inheritance. Thus, we are "saved by His life."..... Christ died for us; Christ lives for us; Christ is coming for us! Hallelujah, what a Savior!


To which I can only add, "Amen!"

 

[gordon 2]

Gordon, thee asketh muchly, and akin to scholarly investigation of providence, which bringeth spiritual refreshment.
(Sorry, I sometimes go all "King James" when a subject has my undivided attention ! )

Your questions, to me, can be summed up with your last...



Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

My answer to your question, based on this scripture, is daily dependency on the Lord's providence (mercy and grace).

Now, how I go about that, might be as different as night and day to another believer's walk with Christ. It would be an injustice to put out any 'rules' along the answer to that, because in the end, "law" will always trip us up... whether it's the law of sin and death, or other laws or "rules" we might cling to, to help our feet not get caught in the traps of the enemy of our souls. I will say this, studying the word of God and comitting it to both memory and also trust that the same Holy Spirit who inspired scripture, would at given times of His choosing, bring the Word (who is Christ Himself!) to bear on ALL circumstances and situations. But I am far from there, this type of "outward perfection" we are discussing!
Paul puts it plainly that this is a goal of the life of faith for everyone...

Ephesians 4:13
till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

Also...
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Can any "law" really bring us to a perfect man? Never, but it is His work, not ours, that we humbly submit to, for Christ Himself (by His perfect Spirit within) to be free to live through us. Cooperation is key as we renew our minds from the old life (Paul says "I die daily") and cling to the truth God says about our New Life within.

Philippians 3:12
[ Pressing Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

OK Let me be the fool's advocate.

Quote:[My answer to your question, based on this scripture, is daily dependency on the Lord's providence (mercy and grace).

Now, how I go about that, might be as different as night and day to another believer's walk with Christ.] End Quote.

Same Christ but different believers account for this example: the degrees of grace and mercy for a man hanging until dead or condemned to prison without parole as reperation for injury? and the rules conflicting and differing definitions of justice? and indeed righteousness?

Quote:[It would be an injustice to put out any 'rules' along the answer to that, because in the end, "law" will always trip us up..] End Quote.

Yet do we, (we christians) not have rules and laws in our doctrines? And do these doctrines perhaps limit grace and mercy, patience and forgiveness...indeed Love? Do we return to the law for fencing in the will of God akin to fencing in property?

If one says the Kingdom is in the heart and the world is doomed to destruction until Christ returns, and another in Christ says it is the Chruch and Christ in us, and another in Christ says it is the renued spiritual material of our lives used to co-create the world anew and hand it over to the Lord as a fruit is shared between a groom and a bride... What is our perfection in this? God cannot say all these things?



If I was a child, say 11yrs old, and I asked you, "What makes Jesus so perfect that Jesus should be my example? Show me in the bible? Where would you lead me? What life would you show me? How would you show me the life in yourself in scripture, where would you go to. Paul's letters? Gospels?

 

[centerpin fan]

If I was a child, say 11yrs old, and I asked you, "What makes Jesus so perfect that Jesus should be my example? Show me in the bible? Where would you lead me?

I would start (and maybe end) with John 1:1:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

 

[gordon 2]

I would start (and maybe end) with John 1:1:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I shall be long suffering then or short on patience in my life depending on my character knowing that there was a beginning and that beginning was God, but how shall I know to perfect my character, my suffering, my patience?

I am told that sin took me away from perfection and that having died to sin in Jesus I am reconciled again to perfection. Yet I am far less patient, bothered to no end by suffering and the suffering of others compared to some other brothers and sisters so reconciled and compared as to when I was to sin. What gives?

Should the perfection in the life of Christ, active in me and you be dependant on our character or the character of Christ? Having Christ in us we are no longer in conformity with the world... yet we have no conformity in grace and mercy.... Where is my model?

 

[formula1]

Re:

In faith like a child, please receive these words:

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

2 Peter 1:3
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Hebrews 3:4
For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.

 

[StriperAddict]

If I was a child, say 11yrs old, and I asked you, "What makes Jesus so perfect that Jesus should be my example? Show me in the bible? Where would you lead me? What life would you show me? How would you show me the life in yourself in scripture, where would you go to. Paul's letters? Gospels?

At each and every corner you would ask providence for such help as the time comes, I suppose. Jesus said, "apart from me ye can do nothing", so it's back to a dependency which I carry out in prayer and faith, as I am able.
As I see in myself those 'demons' of impatience rearing their ugly head, I enter into the choice...
1) To believe I have some earthly 'right' at that moment to 'demand' XXX event gets done, or demand respect if I'm not given it by him at odds with me, or allow anger to surface and maybe just disarm the situation with the power of my flesh. How foolish! But this is in response to what I believe (my error in judgement) at that moment. If I am NOT careful to take such wrong thoughts to the cross, the thought will lead to emotion (never can be a source of truth) and then to action/behavior that is not what lines up with the life of Christ within.
2) If I'm sensitive to the Lord at a moment of trial (and trust me, concern on this has me make this plead with heaven on a day by day basis), then I may just see the Spirit point out an inconsistent belief I have about that situation, and I can correct that by applying what I know from scripture. Truth will be batteling our bad thinking until Christ returns, I'm afraid. But in this battle, we come yet closer to the pattern/model we see in our Lord. This is where grace is applied, because we often blow it with our stinkin' thinkin', but God knows us, and the deep concern we have on the inside is literally the voice of the Holy Spirit cheering us on.
Don't be afraid of failing the "pattern/model" you speak of, mercy and grace are there and you can always come home to the throne of grace boldly, not because of your outward righteousness, but because of Him who right now lives perfectly within your inner man.

Make sense?

 

[Greaserbilly]

I would start (and maybe end) with John 1:1:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Even more beautiful in the original:

EN ARCHE EYN HO LOGOS, KAI HO LOGOS EYN PROS TON THEON, KAI THEOS EYN HO LOGOS.

(Transliterated - dunno who's got koine Greek fonts)

 

[gordon 2]

And so it is...I will be silent now I think, for fear I will continue to repeat myself... and get anoying! if it is not already the case

Thanks to all for sharing....

 

[StriperAddict]

I fear the same with my ramblings, Gordon

But I'm happy that you and everyone in the thread really helped me in this study.

 

[gordon 2]

Finding ourselves perhaps equally annoying....we should not finish this tread on that note.

"much more, being reconcliled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:10" Started here this tread has stirred in me perhaps the difference between my religious community and yours and indeed the deffering societies we live into.

Both of us christian, yet I am roman catholic by birth and choice and most of my brothers here, and I believe you, are protestant, ( but not all).


I have come to this finding, perhaps incomplete for this tread. Catholics believe themselves reconciled by the cross, but my faith is in the earthly life of Christ. That is his life and works. His works and life as "the model" is what catholics, at least this one, considers faith. And once more this faith is active, as our Lords faith was active to change the world according to the will of the Father.

This is brief, but will have to do for now. These are the works of faith according to my tradition. It is for these works, for following the life and works of Christ as a model and going indeed beyond as He tells us to do, that I am SAVED.

See here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Jesus

On the other hand we share in our christian tradition Paul. (Saul of Tarsus.) Now for Paul the prostestant traditions in christianity have made, faith paramount and the focus of faith different than in the catholic tradition.
"Martin Luther's interpretation of Paul's writings heavily influenced Luther's doctrine of sola fide. see below:

See this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

And again this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

You will see in the very first article on Paul, that it is said, Quote"[ Augustine of Hippo developed Paul's idea that salvation is based on faith and not "Works of the Law".[3] Martin Luther's interpretation of Paul's writings heavily influenced Luther's doctrine of sola fide]

Now for all our differences on works and faith, I think we can agree that both traditions have NO faith in the Works of the law. Catholics have faith in the works of Christ and in them to practice. The gospel shall reconcile the world to God for them. Now both traditions hold perhaps to "Christ in us". I have tried to understand the what or how protestant go about faith, and I know that their faith is without peer, and in my limited understanding, it is that their faith is in the reconciliation for the cross and for the resurrection from the death, both physically and spiritualy.

There for I can conclude, yet perhaps only in part, that for protestants faith is Hope of the great kind. None-the-less it is the model of the protestant faith, hope in Christ. Hope that he will return. Hope that He will listen to prayers. Hope that He will bless. Hope that all are saved. Hope that He will Save.

The protestant model of perfection is Hope in Christ. The catholic model of perfection is the works and life of Jesus.

For one Jesus Christ for the other Christ Jesus is, were we gain Him from, and accounts for our differing day in day out walks and yet to we call ourselves brothers in Christ ( our saviour).

I so wish we could find agreement in how to use a foot stool. In our hopes that the light bulbs be changed and in doing it with an eye how Jesus would remouve the old and screw in the new... that electromagnetic radiation might not be devided as the property of differing doctrines.

Amen.

 

[Greaserbilly]

If I understand it correctly, sola fide and sola scriptura means that one's personal faith/relationship are what is required, and all that is necessary for salvation is in the scriptures.

Please understand my ensuing commentary is not meant to be a personal condemnation of Catholicism, but to run through what I believe to be the objections to same from the Protestant viewpoint.

The only sacraments that Jesus commanded were the Eucharist and Baptism. Not the multitudes of required acts that Catholicism adds.

Then there's the idea that the priest IS "another Christ" with the power to compel Jesus to come down from Heaven to be in the host. That's why women can't be ordained, because without a set of male genitals, they don't look like Jesus.

And reading the Bible isn't acceptable. You need to listen to the Pope, who, speaking as God, can't make mistakes. In fact until very very recently Catholics were strongly discouraged from reading the Bible lest they go "wait a minute, where's this Limbo stuff? Where's the confessional thing? Wait, what?"

Unfortunately, to the Protestant mind, the notion that one REQUIRES a Catholic Priest (wasn't the whole notion of the rending of the temple veil about there being no need for a priest class?), REQUIRES confession TO THAT PRIEST, WHO IS JESUS, REQUIRES the Pope, REQUIRES a bunch of rituals and sacraments NOT IN THE BIBLE and such is "salvation by works". In fact, the biggest threat the Catholic Church had was "excommunication" - consigning someone to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- because he/she could not perform the necessary rituals and spells to get into the Pearly Gates.

Actually, it gets worse. You pray to a Priest, who prays to a Saint, or to Mary, who asks Jesus to talk to God. Because after all, there's this very large celestial bureaucracy to deal with.

Protestants DO focus more on the CHRISTOS than the YEHESHUAH, I'll agree. They do tend to worry far less about doing the things that Jesus did, and I'll totally stand up for the Catholics with their missions, and their hospitals, and their sending food, clothing and strong arms and legs to build houses and dig wells in places where people are dying. The Protestant world needs way, WAY more of that.

However when you speak of works, the Protestant mind thinks less of this and more of "you must make sure you do this prayer. And that spell. And that made-up sacrament. And don't seek a relationship with God. The priest does that for you. And he gets his marching orders from the Pope, who is The Final Authority, not the Bible." (from their perspective)

HTH

 

[gordon 2]

If I understand it correctly, sola fide and sola scriptura means that one's personal faith/relationship are what is required, and all that is necessary for salvation is in the scriptures.

Please understand my ensuing commentary is not meant to be a personal condemnation of Catholicism, but to run through what I believe to be the objections to same from the Protestant viewpoint.

The only sacraments that Jesus commanded were the Eucharist and Baptism. Not the multitudes of required acts that Catholicism adds.

Then there's the idea that the priest IS "another Christ" with the power to compel Jesus to come down from Heaven to be in the host. That's why women can't be ordained, because without a set of male genitals, they don't look like Jesus.

And reading the Bible isn't acceptable. You need to listen to the Pope, who, speaking as God, can't make mistakes. In fact until very very recently Catholics were strongly discouraged from reading the Bible lest they go "wait a minute, where's this Limbo stuff? Where's the confessional thing? Wait, what?"

Unfortunately, to the Protestant mind, the notion that one REQUIRES a Catholic Priest (wasn't the whole notion of the rending of the temple veil about there being no need for a priest class?), REQUIRES confession TO THAT PRIEST, WHO IS JESUS, REQUIRES the Pope, REQUIRES a bunch of rituals and sacraments NOT IN THE BIBLE and such is "salvation by works". In fact, the biggest threat the Catholic Church had was "excommunication" - consigning someone to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- because he/she could not perform the necessary rituals and spells to get into the Pearly Gates.

Actually, it gets worse. You pray to a Priest, who prays to a Saint, or to Mary, who asks Jesus to talk to God. Because after all, there's this very large celestial bureaucracy to deal with.

Protestants DO focus more on the CHRISTOS than the YEHESHUAH, I'll agree. They do tend to worry far less about doing the things that Jesus did, and I'll totally stand up for the Catholics with their missions, and their hospitals, and their sending food, clothing and strong arms and legs to build houses and dig wells in places where people are dying. The Protestant world needs way, WAY more of that.

However when you speak of works, the Protestant mind thinks less of this and more of "you must make sure you do this prayer. And that spell. And that made-up sacrament. And don't seek a relationship with God. The priest does that for you. And he gets his marching orders from the Pope, who is The Final Authority, not the Bible." (from their perspective)

HTH

All I can tell you is that in my experience and what has been my teaching is that none of the obove applies to being a christian or a catholic for that matter. But these point as works are not the works I am talking about. I am talking about the works in the ministry of Jesus...by Jesus who was God. The works usually attributed to catholics as being sacrements are erroneous in my view--and especially to the discussion here.

However, your list is not my experience as a catholic. My first encounter with a sacrement, that I was told it was one and had enough cognitive ability to not suck my tumb and was able to pull down my own pants in the bathroom was in grade primary. We were taught, I was taught, that any catholic, any christian could baptise someone, not only priests or ministers...and also it could be preformed with ditch water in a pinch. And so I found out later there were steriotypes about works that just did not apply...to grade primary catholics and advanced grades as well--I supposed.

So...I think we should get back to what I have identified as works here. Both catholics and protestants have always agreed that works after the law were a frustration to a new life for reconciliation---but that works from the heart in accordance and design similar to the works of God are the way to go....

But for doctine the way to go is different to both groups by degree for what we place as the model of our faith, namely hope in Christ and works in Christ.

 

[Greaserbilly]

The works usually attributed to catholics as being sacrements are erroneous in my view--and especially to the discussion here.

with all due respect, and I GENUINELY mean that


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3E.HTM
THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH

1210 Christ instituted the sacraments of the new law. There are seven: Baptism, Confirmation (or Chrismation), the Eucharist, Penance, the Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders and Matrimony.

VIII. The Minister of This Sacrament

1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation,65 bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

O RLY?

 

[gordon 2]

with all due respect, and I GENUINELY mean that


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3E.HTM
THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH

1210 Christ instituted the sacraments of the new law. There are seven: Baptism, Confirmation (or Chrismation), the Eucharist, Penance, the Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders and Matrimony.

VIII. The Minister of This Sacrament

1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation,65 bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

O RLY?

Ok Bros. You win...but, and I mean this in all respect as well, do you see that when I talk about works here I am not talking about sacrements...but the works of our day in, day out walk as christians---like praying for patience, LOL, or working for peace and justice, as per the great commission etc.... and that the example is the life of Christ, his ministry and his works....

Sacrements as works are for a different box of chocolate than which is being offered in this tread.

 

[StriperAddict]

So...I think we should get back to what I have identified as works here. Both catholics and protestants have always agreed that works after the law were a frustration to a new life for reconciliation---but that works from the heart in accordance and design similar to the works of God are the way to go....

Couldn't have said it better.

But for doctine the way to go is different to both groups by degree for what we place as the model of our faith, namely hope in Christ and works in Christ.

Gordon, is it possible that they are so close in perspective that for both "camps", the wall of seperation is gone? I believe it to be.
Certainly there are some "non-believing" protestants in some mainline "works-only, no gospel truth" churches around, as I'm sure there are the same in cathloic churches. As you have rightly stated, it's a matter of the heart. I hate to talk about my beliefs in doctrine as having any "slant" (wether protestant, cathloic, conservative, liberal, evangelical, etc.,) but I wish to be known and also know all men as being complete in Christ (or the potential for same if faith unto salvation has not happened yet).
You may rightly say my slant is evangelical/protestant, but I have long since kicked denominationalism out the door for the sake of living by the power of an indestructable life. (Hebrews 7:16)

Sorry I gotta run... I'll continue later!
)

 

[centerpin fan]

If I understand it correctly, sola fide and sola scriptura means that one's personal faith/relationship are what is required, and all that is necessary for salvation is in the scriptures.

Please understand my ensuing commentary is not meant to be a personal condemnation of Catholicism, but to run through what I believe to be the objections to same from the Protestant viewpoint.

The only sacraments that Jesus commanded were the Eucharist and Baptism. Not the multitudes of required acts that Catholicism adds.

Then there's the idea that the priest IS "another Christ" with the power to compel Jesus to come down from Heaven to be in the host. That's why women can't be ordained, because without a set of male genitals, they don't look like Jesus.

And reading the Bible isn't acceptable. You need to listen to the Pope, who, speaking as God, can't make mistakes. In fact until very very recently Catholics were strongly discouraged from reading the Bible lest they go "wait a minute, where's this Limbo stuff? Where's the confessional thing? Wait, what?"

Unfortunately, to the Protestant mind, the notion that one REQUIRES a Catholic Priest (wasn't the whole notion of the rending of the temple veil about there being no need for a priest class?), REQUIRES confession TO THAT PRIEST, WHO IS JESUS, REQUIRES the Pope, REQUIRES a bunch of rituals and sacraments NOT IN THE BIBLE and such is "salvation by works". In fact, the biggest threat the Catholic Church had was "excommunication" - consigning someone to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- because he/she could not perform the necessary rituals and spells to get into the Pearly Gates.

Actually, it gets worse. You pray to a Priest, who prays to a Saint, or to Mary, who asks Jesus to talk to God. Because after all, there's this very large celestial bureaucracy to deal with.

Protestants DO focus more on the CHRISTOS than the YEHESHUAH, I'll agree. They do tend to worry far less about doing the things that Jesus did, and I'll totally stand up for the Catholics with their missions, and their hospitals, and their sending food, clothing and strong arms and legs to build houses and dig wells in places where people are dying. The Protestant world needs way, WAY more of that.

However when you speak of works, the Protestant mind thinks less of this and more of "you must make sure you do this prayer. And that spell. And that made-up sacrament. And don't seek a relationship with God. The priest does that for you. And he gets his marching orders from the Pope, who is The Final Authority, not the Bible." (from their perspective)

HTH

Where's Big7 when you need him?

 

[StriperAddict]

Well, I don't want to make this a see-saw between Catholic & Protestant. My one goal is to see men complete in Christ. They, or I, can call themselves by whatever title they want, I don't think those things will be rewards in eternity.
But following the "Model", who is Christ, will be.
We will never know until we see Him face to face the people that have been impacted for the Lord by the simple ways we allow our Lord to live thru us; a kind word, an unselfish act, keeping the faith in the midst of terrible pain or persecution or betrayal. It is the Lord who gives us light thru these things. And wether we follow Him out of what we see in the physical life of Jesus, or see with the eyes of the spirit, the end ought well be the same. We have this treasure (life in the Spirit) in earthen vessels... yep, our bodies of clay, so that the excellency of (His) power would be from HIM and not us... why? Because in that earthen vessel we will have no cause to boast that the "work" was done by us, but we will give praise to whom such work was done... thru us.
This is the heart stuff that I believe crushes the wall of separation between believers of different ( I hate to say it) denominational (yuck!) perspective.
No robes will I wear when and if I meet you on terra firma, brother Gordon!