The spirit teaches

[centerpin fan]

If I look at what Augustine said:

Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

Reading this it becomes very clear to me that he did not think that repentance of sin was necessary for salvation.

You're selectively quoting a man whose autobiography was titled Confessions -- which details his life of sin and subsequent repentance.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

The possibility of a different gospel for gentiles was not something that I pulled out of the air. I simply read in Galations 2:

2 Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles.(Why would he need to share with them the gospel he preaches to the gentiles if it was the same gospel that Peter preached to the Jews?)I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.(under the law) 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

Late in his ministry, Peter would tell the Jews to go to Pauls epistles for understanding about salvation.

2 Peter 3:15-16

15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,(For a Jew) which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Reading these things I can come up with no other explanation other than Paul's gospel to the gentiles was different than Peter's.

Well read on down to 6:6 and your find

they added nothing to my message.

which clearly indicates there was ONE message, not two.

 

[hobbs27]

Scripture has and continues to be bent into diametrically opposing views so I'm not convinced your last statement is very sound advice

Then who amongst this group of misfits shall he put all his faith in to direct him on sound doctrine? If the spirit isn't allowed to settle our faith on doctrine then we must be abandoned children. Yes we question, yes we have different thoughts, but it is our life long duty to search where the Lord directs us.

 

[hobbs27]

Reading these things I can come up with no other explanation other than Paul's gospel to the gentiles was different than Peter's.

What is your definition of Gospel?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

If I look at what Augustine said:

Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

Reading this it becomes very clear to me that he did not think that repentance of sin was necessary for salvation.

Let me get this straight. You read that and decided repentance isn't necessary?

Are you kidding me? Really? How?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Then who amongst this group of misfits shall he put all his faith in to direct him on sound doctrine?

At this point, for him, I would suggest a Children's Bible.

 

[Vectorman]

What is your definition of Gospel?

The word gospel means "good news", we do unfortunately because of how we have been taught automatically to think "requirements for salvation" when we see it but that's not always they way it should be read.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Please allow me to alter this slightly. I think you understated it.

You're selectively quoting a man whose autobiography was titled Confessions -- which details his life of sin and subsequent repentance.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

The word gospel means "good news", we do unfortunately because of how we have been taught automatically to think "requirements for salvation" when we see it but that's not always they way it should be read.

Makes perfect sense. You can't just toss out 'repentance' without redefining 'gospel' along the way.

 

[Vectorman]

Let me get this straight. You read that and decided repentance isn't necessary?

Are you kidding me? Really? How?

I said based on what he said, he(Augustine) didn't think repentance of sin was necessary for salvation.

What did Calvin and Luther think?....

from Bible.org

REPENTANCE (METANOIA) DEFINED AS A CHANGE OF MIND

In contrast to the Church's definition of metanoia as involving contrition, confession, and the performance of acts of penance, Calvin and Luther concluded that it retained its classical sense of "a change of mind."21 Salvific repentance according to Calvin and Luther was a change of mind whereby one recognized his own sinfulness and need of forgiveness and then turned in faith to God to provide that forgiveness in Christ.22 In essence, then, Luther and Calvin viewed salvific repentance as an essential part of saving faith.

 

[hobbs27]

The word gospel means "good news", we do unfortunately because of how we have been taught automatically to think "requirements for salvation" when we see it but that's not always they way it should be read.

And what was the good news, and how could it possibly be different for the Jew than the Gentile?

 

[centerpin fan]

Fifteen people reading this train wreck now ...

 

[centerpin fan]

I said based on what he said, he(Augustine) didn't think repentance of sin was necessary for salvation.

What did Calvin and Luther think?....

from Bible.org

REPENTANCE (METANOIA) DEFINED AS A CHANGE OF MIND

In contrast to the Church's definition of metanoia as involving contrition, confession, and the performance of acts of penance, Calvin and Luther concluded that it retained its classical sense of "a change of mind."21 Salvific repentance according to Calvin and Luther was a change of mind whereby one recognized his own sinfulness and need of forgiveness and then turned in faith to God to provide that forgiveness in Christ.22 In essence, then, Luther and Calvin viewed salvific repentance as an essential part of saving faith.

Did you read that part?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I said based on what he said, he(Augustine) didn't think repentance of sin was necessary for salvation.

What did Calvin and Luther think?....

from Bible.org

REPENTANCE (METANOIA) DEFINED AS A CHANGE OF MIND

In contrast to the Church's definition of metanoia as involving contrition, confession, and the performance of acts of penance, Calvin and Luther concluded that it retained its classical sense of "a change of mind."21 Salvific repentance according to Calvin and Luther was a change of mind whereby one recognized his own sinfulness and need of forgiveness and then turned in faith to God to provide that forgiveness in Christ.22 In essence, then, Luther and Calvin viewed salvific repentance as an essential part of saving faith.

In the Augustine quote, unless I missed it, the term repentance is not present. Are you implying the reason it's not present is because it's not necessary?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Did you read that part?

I think he's arguing (his) interpretation of Augustine is correct and the Church including Calvin and Luther are wrong. Otherwise his post makes no sense.

 

[centerpin fan]

I think he's arguing (his) interpretation of Augustine is correct and the Church including Calvin and Luther are wrong. Otherwise his post makes no sense.

At this point, I'm starting to feel like John Cleese:

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Fifteen people reading this train wreck now ...

Well at least it's interesting.

 

[Vectorman]

It depends on what your definition of repentance is. If you think repentance means to turn from sin then no, repentance is not part of salvation. If you believe that repentance is changing your mind and believing the gospel, then yes. My post about Calvin and Martin Luther was to show that they had the correct definition of repentance.

 

[centerpin fan]

My post about Calvin and Martin Luther was to show that they had the correct definition of repentance.

I think they did. But your definition of repentance does not match theirs. Read the red part again in post 153.

 

[Artfuldodger]

In contrast to the Church's definition of metanoia as involving contrition, confession, and the performance of acts of penance, Calvin and Luther concluded that it retained its classical sense of "a change of mind."21 Salvific repentance according to Calvin and Luther was a change of mind whereby one recognized his own sinfulness and need of forgiveness and then turned in faith to God to provide that forgiveness in Christ.22 In essence, then, Luther and Calvin viewed salvific repentance as an essential part of saving faith.

Wouldn't it appear that Luther and Calvin's definition of salvific repentance be a change of mind and that it is a part of saving faith? They aren't denying that it is a part of salvation, just the definition of repentance.