Heaven and Free Will

[atlashunter]

Man's problem is death. Paul talks about it in Romans 6, among other places. Read On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius for a more thorough explanation.

What does that have to do with our sinful natures described in Romans 7?

 

[atlashunter]

No, it's like putting a kid in a petting zoo and saying, "Pet 'em all, kid -- the lamb, the goat, the pony, and the puppy. But see that cobra over there in the corner? Don't pet it because it's poisonous and will kill you."

Adam and Eve had it made in the shade.

You need to add a few details to make the analogy accurate. You gave the child a curiosity that you knew would lead to a desire to pet the cobra. You made the cobra and put the cobra in the petting zoo knowing with 100% certainty that the child would disobey you and pet the cobra. You allowed another adult in the petting zoo to tempt the child into petting the cobra knowing what the outcome would be. You did all of this knowing from the very start that the end result would be a dead child.

No court of law would declare someone who did this not guilty.

 

[ambush80]

You need to add a few details to make the analogy accurate. You gave the child a curiosity that you knew would lead to a desire to pet the cobra. You made the cobra and put the cobra in the petting zoo knowing with 100% certainty that the child would disobey you and pet the cobra. You allowed another adult in the petting zoo to tempt the child into petting the cobra knowing what the outcome would be. You did all of this knowing from the very start that the end result would be a dead child.

No court of law would declare someone who did this not guilty.

For real, yo! And he was a bad dude.

 

[dexrusjak]

I don't have an answer for #1 but for #2, temptations are all around us and a part of life. God realized this and was seeing how Adam could handle it. He failed. Now did God no this would happen, I don't think so. Is every human Christian or non-Christian responsible for our own actions? Yes.

But why are temptations a part of life? Because God wanted them to be. God chose to tempt humans causing them to sin. If God had not allowed for Adam to be tempted, Adam would not have sinned. God is at fault here, not Adam. If I put a cookie in front of my 2 year old daughter and say don't eat that as I leave the room, am I really justified in being upset with her when I return and she's eaten the cookie? I'm more at fault than she is for leaving the cookie there.

 

[dexrusjak]

It doesn't.




No, it's like putting a kid in a petting zoo and saying, "Pet 'em all, kid -- the lamb, the goat, the pony, and the puppy. But see that cobra over there in the corner? Don't pet it because it's poisonous and will kill you."

Adam and Eve had it made in the shade.

Thank you for making my point for me. What kind of loving father would put his kid in such danger?

 

[dexrusjak]

Spong's type of Christianity is not Christianity. He wouldn't be the first to make up his own faith, though.

Says you.

 

[dexrusjak]

You need to add a few details to make the analogy accurate. You gave the child a curiosity that you knew would lead to a desire to pet the cobra. You made the cobra and put the cobra in the petting zoo knowing with 100% certainty that the child would disobey you and pet the cobra. You allowed another adult in the petting zoo to tempt the child into petting the cobra knowing what the outcome would be. You did all of this knowing from the very start that the end result would be a dead child.

No court of law would declare someone who did this not guilty.

Well said.

 

[mtnwoman]

I'm all for justice but there is no justice in roasting someone forever for any crime. And to equate people who commit the crime of not sharing your religious beliefs with rapists and child molesters is absurd. I'm so glad I came to my senses and don't believe christian nonsense any more. I see it now for the evil that it is and I'm saddened to see others so caught up in it.

So if someone rapes your child and your child never recovers and never comes to Christ and is left behind to forever be forsaken and seperated from his/her family and condemned to whatever their hades may be...whether it be forever tortured by lonliness or forever seperated by fire, or seperated by drugs or tormented and raped and tortured by the same rapist over and over for eternity.....you'd deem the original culprit justified and not liable for their actions and don't deserve to be in hades?.....alrighty then. I must be a differnet breed than you....anyone rapes my child deserves to be in hades(whatever their hades might be) least they repent and be saved...but that's just me.
Satan ain't gettin' my young'uns to torture forever along with the original demon that tortured them......don't you see that child molesters are demons and have already lived in hades???? Lord help us sweet Jesus.

 

[dexrusjak]

So if someone rapes your child and your child never recovers and never comes to Christ and is left behind to forever be forsaken and seperated from his/her family and condemned to whatever their hades may be...whether it be forever tortured by lonliness or forever seperated by fire, or seperated by drugs or tormented and raped and tortured by the same rapist over and over for eternity.....you'd deem the original culprit justified and not liable for their actions and don't deserve to be in hades?.....alrighty then. I must be a differnet breed than you....anyone rapes my child deserves to be in hades(whatever their hades might be) least they repent and be saved...but that's just me.
Satan ain't gettin' my young'uns to torture forever along with the original demon that tortured them......don't you see that child molesters are demons and have already lived in hades???? Lord help us sweet Jesus.

You do realize that according to your religion, a person can rape and murder 100 children and still go to Heaven, right?

 

[mtnwoman]

But why are temptations a part of life? Because God wanted them to be. God chose to tempt humans causing them to sin. If God had not allowed for Adam to be tempted, Adam would not have sinned. God is at fault here, not Adam. If I put a cookie in front of my 2 year old daughter and say don't eat that as I leave the room, am I really justified in being upset with her when I return and she's eaten the cookie? I'm more at fault than she is for leaving the cookie there.

Really, so it's your fault when your child disobeys? alrighty then.

So are you saying that you train your child obedience by hiding everything from them? When you go to the pool and tell them not to go to the deep end, how do you hide that from them? How do you flash that in front of them but yet expect them to obey you if you feel that you are tempting them by exposing them to the deep end in the first place? Why do you take them to walmart and tempt them with on coming traffic, if you expect them to fail? What you're saying makes no sense at all.

When I was raising my child, I didn't hide everything in the house from her. I told her not to touch it and if she did, I would either pop her hand mildly and say no to get her attention or scold her to get her attention....either that or deal with her touching everything in walmart that didn't belong to her.

So you think God tempted Adam/Eve just so He could punish them for failure...if that is your mindset, then probably you set your children up for failure too, either that or you let them do anything they want to without any punishment whatsoever.....that's cool do what you want, just don't bring God to your level...or mine.

 

[mtnwoman]

You do realize that according to your religion, a person can rape and murder 100 children and still go to Heaven, right?

Probably a person that is that demonized is not going to surrender to Christ. I believe in demons, which probably you do not. Demons live thru us. Demons of alcohol, demons of perversion, demons of lying, demons of thievery, demons of rage, demons of any kind of addictions, those demons come from satan's legion, likely not to be anything else but a demon spirit.


But.....Perhaps children of abuse, can be saved, can turn to God, can be saved. I don't know I'm not the judge. I know I drove drunk at least 100 times, didn't kill anyone, yet I'm redeemed from alcohol....so I can't answer your question for I am not God. But I am delivered....I am damaged....but delivered. And trust me that demon of alcohol nips at my heels almost every day...and I rebuke it in the name of Jesus all day long.

 

[mtnwoman]

You need to add a few details to make the analogy accurate. You gave the child a curiosity that you knew would lead to a desire to pet the cobra. You made the cobra and put the cobra in the petting zoo knowing with 100% certainty that the child would disobey you and pet the cobra. You allowed another adult in the petting zoo to tempt the child into petting the cobra knowing what the outcome would be. You did all of this knowing from the very start that the end result would be a dead child.

No court of law would declare someone who did this not guilty.

I have one daughter and 3 granddaughters.....so I'm speaking about girls and not boys...perhaps a different experience than you. None of them would touch a snake, not a garden snake, not a garter snake, not a green snake, not a rattler, not a cottonmouth, not ever a spider, no kind of a spider...they squeal and run for the hills. I'm the only one out of the 5 of us that will grab a granddaddy long legs and throw him outside. I'm the only one that will kill a bee, too. The rest run and hide....they are not stupid...they learned from a young age, from obedience or lack of, not to get around anything that might 'smite' them. We didn't have to trick them, we didn't have to bribe them, we just taught them to mind us.......that just doesn't seem that hard to me.

I don't know why it has been so hard for y'all to teach a young'un to stay away from a snake....Lordy, I'll be prayin' for your rightmindedness in doing so.

 

[mtnwoman]

You need to add a few details to make the analogy accurate. You gave the child a curiosity that you knew would lead to a desire to pet the cobra. You made the cobra and put the cobra in the petting zoo knowing with 100% certainty that the child would disobey you and pet the cobra. You allowed another adult in the petting zoo to tempt the child into petting the cobra knowing what the outcome would be. You did all of this knowing from the very start that the end result would be a dead child.

No court of law would declare someone who did this not guilty.

Now that I've reread this, perhaps your children were raised as the deliverance movie kids were raised....wow....no common sense at all...that is YOUR fault. I don't know a single kid that isn't afraid of a snake....and I live in eastbum....

 

[dexrusjak]

Really, so it's your fault when your child disobeys? alrighty then.

So are you saying that you train your child obedience by hiding everything from them? When you go to the pool and tell them not to go to the deep end, how do you hide that from them? How do you flash that in front of them but yet expect them to obey you if you feel that you are tempting them by exposing them to the deep end in the first place? Why do you take them to walmart and tempt them with on coming traffic, if you expect them to fail? What you're saying makes no sense at all.

When I was raising my child, I didn't hide everything in the house from her. I told her not to touch it and if she did, I would either pop her hand mildly and say no to get her attention or scold her to get her attention....either that or deal with her touching everything in walmart that didn't belong to her.

So you think God tempted Adam/Eve just so He could punish them for failure...if that is your mindset, then probably you set your children up for failure too, either that or you let them do anything they want to without any punishment whatsoever.....that's cool do what you want, just don't bring God to your level...or mine.

You sure do make a lot of assumptions. It's very annoying.

1. It's not my fault when my child disobeys, unless it is, as in the example given. If God is infinitely wiser than us, then yes, he (sic) deserves most of the blame. He should know better.

2. I do not hold "everything" from my child. I try to give her as much freedom as she can handle. I try to set healthy boundaries. The example I offered was a hypothetical situation, BTW. I'm certainly not going to tempt my 2-year-old with the deep end of the swimming pool or oncoming traffic. When she gets older, and can handle those things, she'll learn to handle them wisely. I don't really get your analogy here.

3. When you were raising your child, did you leave knives and guns lying around the house, or did you keep those hidden from her?

4. Your final block of text makes absolutely no sense. God doesn't exist; neither did Adam or Eve. It's a made up story. It's not even a good story. If God created two people, told them not to eat fruit from a certain tree, allowed a talking snake to tempt them into eating from the tree, punished their "fall" along with all of humanity for the rest of time with the threat of eternal torture and then sacrificed himself to himself so that a few people could believe and not suffer forever, then that "God" is a pathetic, disgraceful being. I'm glad such a god does not exist.

 

[dexrusjak]

Probably a person that is that demonized is not going to surrender to Christ. I believe in demons, which probably you do not. Demons live thru us. Demons of alcohol, demons of perversion, demons of lying, demons of thievery, demons of rage, demons of any kind of addictions, those demons come from satan's legion, likely not to be anything else but a demon spirit.


But.....Perhaps children of abuse, can be saved, can turn to God, can be saved. I don't know I'm not the judge. I know I drove drunk at least 100 times, didn't kill anyone, yet I'm redeemed from alcohol....so I can't answer your question for I am not God. But I am delivered....I am damaged....but delivered. And trust me that demon of alcohol nips at my heels almost every day...and I rebuke it in the name of Jesus all day long.

There's no such thing as demons. Is it POSSIBLE, according to your beliefs that a man could rape a child and upon their deaths years later, the man could spend eternity in Heaven and the child spend eternity in He11? Is this scenario POSSIBLE?

 

[atlashunter]

So if someone rapes your child and your child never recovers and never comes to Christ and is left behind to forever be forsaken and seperated from his/her family and condemned to whatever their hades may be...whether it be forever tortured by lonliness or forever seperated by fire, or seperated by drugs or tormented and raped and tortured by the same rapist over and over for eternity.....you'd deem the original culprit justified and not liable for their actions and don't deserve to be in hades?

Would they deserve to be there forever? Nope. Not for any finite life of misdeeds. Punishment? Absolutely. Again I'm all for justice. Infinite punishment for a finite crime isn't justice. Of course in your world a child molester can repent and be saved before they die and heaven everlasting is their reward. Yet if their victim happened to be jewish they would deserve to burn forever no matter how good a person they were in this life. That's a positively immoral set of beliefs.

It seems that you are saying if your loved one doesn't believe the bible no matter how they lived their life they deserve to be burned for eternity and you would be content to have all memory of them wiped from your mind. This is morality? This is justice?

 

[atlashunter]

Probably a person that is that demonized is not going to surrender to Christ. I believe in demons, which probably you do not. Demons live thru us. Demons of alcohol, demons of perversion, demons of lying, demons of thievery, demons of rage, demons of any kind of addictions, those demons come from satan's legion, likely not to be anything else but a demon spirit.

Rudolf Hoss was the commandant of Auschwitz. I'm sure you're familiar with the atrocities he oversaw. Here is what he had to say four days before his execution.

My conscience compels me to make the following declaration. In the solitude of my prison cell I have come to the bitter recognition that I have sinned gravely against humanity. As Commandant of Auschwitz I was responsible for carrying out part of the cruel plans of the 'Third Reich' for human destruction. In so doing I have inflicted terrible wounds on humanity. I caused unspeakable suffering for the Polish people in particular. I am to pay for this with my life. May the Lord God forgive one day what I have done.

Appears he was repentant. Perhaps he really was. As a Catholic maybe he got down on his knees in those days before his death and asked for God's forgiveness. Not unlikely. If he did, according to your religion he gets eternal bliss in heaven. His jewish victims that rejected the idea that Jesus was the messiah? They're burning to this day and always will and deservedly so right?

 

[mtnwoman]

You sure do make a lot of assumptions. It's very annoying.

1. It's not my fault when my child disobeys, unless it is, as in the example given. If God is infinitely wiser than us, then yes, he (sic) deserves most of the blame. He should know better. He being the father and you being the father make you equal....when a child is squealing and screaming in walmart and disturbing the entire place....you really think it's the childs fault? really? it isn't the parents fault? Lordy have mercy. I blame the parent for not teaching the child obedience to shut up....maybe you don't...well obviously you don't...otay buttwheat.

2. I do not hold "everything" from my child. I try to give her as much freedom as she can handle. I try to set healthy boundaries. The example I offered was a hypothetical situation, BTW. I'm certainly not going to tempt my 2-year-old with the deep end of the swimming pool or oncoming traffic. When she gets older, and can handle those things, she'll learn to handle them wisely. I don't really get your analogy here.So you avoid going to a pool where the deep end is not available and therefore you don't have to watch your child from going there? therefore no temptation for the child eh? yeah right? never been to a pool like that in my life, where my child didn't wander to the deep end.

3. When you were raising your child, did you leave knives and guns lying around the house, or did you keep those hidden from her? of course not, I never had guns....but you were using a cookie, as an example now you've moved to knives and guns....wow....twist it up why won't you.

4. Your final block of text makes absolutely no sense. God doesn't exist; neither did Adam or Eve. It's a made up story. It's not even a good story. If God created two people, told them not to eat fruit from a certain tree, allowed a talking snake to tempt them into eating from the tree, punished their "fall" along with all of humanity for the rest of time with the threat of eternal torture and then sacrificed himself to himself so that a few people could believe and not suffer forever, then that "God" is a pathetic, disgraceful being. I'm glad such a god does not exist.

Well that's your opinion, and if you're right, so be it, but if you're wrong, your children will suffer because they never had a choice in the matter, at least I gave mine a choice. I didn't force them, just was open minded about it and let them choose.

 

[mtnwoman]

Rudolf Hoss was the commandant of Auschwitz. I'm sure you're familiar with the atrocities he oversaw. Here is what he had to say four days before his execution.



Appears he was repentant. Perhaps he really was. As a Catholic maybe he got down on his knees in those days before his death and asked for God's forgiveness. Not unlikely. If he did, according to your religion he gets eternal bliss in heaven. His jewish victims that rejected the idea that Jesus was the messiah? They're burning to this day and always will and deservedly so right?

Huh? The Jews have a second chance......that's why we(gentiles) even have a first chance. I think you're missing something....a lot in fact.

You either believe it all or none. I believe it all and that's why it makes sense to me.

I've been where you are with all the questions and disbeliefs of why this and why that. Until you put the puzzle together you'll never get the full picture. Scramble it up and you only get confusion, but that's where satan comes in.....he's the author of confusion....he's trying to build his army. I ain't skeerd though.

 

[mtnwoman]

It seems that you are saying if your loved one doesn't believe the bible no matter how they lived their life they deserve to be burned for eternity and you would be content to have all memory of them wiped from your mind. This is morality? This is justice?

Well you see, you keep saying burned, I've never said that. I am like you I don't think everyone should burn throughout eternity. I think being seperated from God and loved ones is bad enough and just as bad. My exhusband says he thinks he's a pretty good guy because he never killed anyone or hurt anyone or in his mind never stole from anyone. Yet I just found out he cheated on me for 10 years and his next wife for 28 years and has abandoned his children 18 and 21 and hasn't been heard from in 4 months because he's a 'rock star'. He sold coke and pot and turned me onto drugs and alcohol at age 23 but considers himself 'not a heathen' and was sprinkled at birth, so he's saved.....really??