Heaven and Free Will

[JB0704]

Thanks for passing that along.

Over a period of months and years I began to understand that my beliefs were no more plausible than any other religious beliefs.

That's why Christians have Ravi Zacharias.

Over the course of 3-4 years I went from hard-core evangelical fundamentalist Southern Baptist to moderate Christian to liberal Christian to Christian agnostic to theist to deist to agnostic to atheist.

I understand. I went from fundie to moderate to theist and tinkered with agnostic then bounced back to "liberal" Christian, which I guess is where I am currently. It was about a process. But I am comfortable and confident in my Christian faith.

Essentially, it boiled down to one thing. My entire Christian worldview was based on the Bible. If the Bible was truly the Word of God, my faith was justified. If the Bible was a man-made book, my faith was nothing. I diligently studied the Bible. I read everything I could get my hands on that dealt with church history, the Christian canon, textual criticism, everything. It became clear over time that the Bible is nothing more than a collection of man-made writings from an age that has long since past. Aside from a few basic moral principles, there is nothing in the Bible that holds any relevance for life in 2012. When I realized that the Bible was in no way the Word of God, I simply walked away. I haven't questioned my decision since. The only thing I regret is that I didn't examine my faith critically and walk away from it much sooner.

I disagree with the comments in red, but I guess that is for another thread.

I view the Bible a little differently than some Christians. I do not think it has to be what we say it is. It just is what it is. We can look for meaning and message without getting bogged down in whether or not it is what the preacher or the atheist say it is and what it must do.

 

[dexrusjak]

Adam did. God did not put him in a "lose/lose" situation, and He did not set him up to fail.

1. I wasn't talking about Adam. I was talking about you. Another man's sin shouldn't condemn me or you to eternal punishment.

2. God did set up Adam to fail. Not putting a tree in the garden would have been setting Adam up not to fail. It's like putting a beer in front of a recovering alcoholic and telling him not to drink it. Why not just take the beer away from him in the first place?

 

[dexrusjak]

I hear you, JB. Are you familiar with John Shelby Spong? If there were ever a chance for me to become a Christian again, it would be his type of Christianity.

As far as RZ goes. I've watched his videos, read his books, even went to hear him speak in Atlanta once. I really don't see what all the fuss is about. He make a decent case for a deity, but then he makes a hooooooooge leap to that deity being the God of the Bible. At least that's what I've observed of him.

 

[atlashunter]

I love it when you guys quote the Bible.

I trust you find it authoritative.

 

[atlashunter]

You're leaving out a lot. Romans consists of more than those few verses.

Details please.

 

[mtnwoman]

Would it be just as bad being separated from them forever while they burn?

Well for them it would be, but I wouldn't know the difference......scripture says there is no tears in heaven....like I said before....if I believe in your mockery of talkin' donkeys then I believe in this....eh?

Revelation 21:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Why do you assume being in hades is the same as being in heaven, just opposite poles????? In my opinion....you should listen to your mama...she grieves for you now....only shortly though. You will grieve her for eternity, when Christ gives her peace. You really think she doesn't deserve better? really?

 

[mtnwoman]

It would be akin to someone molesting your children and hiding the fact from you only taken to a much greater extreme. Instead of the finite act of molestation we are talking about subjecting someone to extreme pain forever. Instead of hiding it from you we are talking about wiping the very knowledge and awareness that the children you love ever even existed from your mind. Perhaps you would be happier in your ignorance but that is hardly doing you a good deed. It's quite an evil suggestion if you stop and think about it.

By the way, I'm curious to know what your scriptural basis is for this claim.

Huh? You and your children if you teach them to live as you do, will be here with the child molesters and the thieves and all of satans legion...the crack addict..and will sell their bodies and their sisters for crack...well they do that now. Because all the good or semi good but forgiven will be raptured off the face of the earth, along with the holy spirit....satan will take over.....and you and only you will have to defend your children, you will have not one rightous one to help you, because only evil will be left here. Before that happens, I want to be raptured up out of here, with my child and grand children and brothers and sister who are saved. I do not want to be left behind on earth with only evil, imagine....like thunder dome or something....forsaken, forgotten, unremembered,hungry,unloved, lonely, sick, in pain, blind, lame, joyless, guilty, bored...... Lord have mercy Jesus, have mercy on all of us here, not just me.

 

[atlashunter]

Adam did. God did not put him in a "lose/lose" situation, and He did not set him up to fail.

According to the Christian responses to the original question there are certain components that must be in place to have sin. We are told that explains why there is sin on earth but not heaven. Well who puts those components in place with foreknowledge of what the results will be?

 

[mtnwoman]

No, we became sick and God provided the medicine to get well.

That's like the doctor prescribing a medication, but when you get home.....you have free will to take it or not.

Sometimes I minds, and sometimes I don't minds so good. That's my free will at work.....unfortunately...lol

 

[Artfuldodger]

1. I wasn't talking about Adam. I was talking about you. Another man's sin shouldn't condemn me or you to eternal punishment.

2. God did set up Adam to fail. Not putting a tree in the garden would have been setting Adam up not to fail. It's like putting a beer in front of a recovering alcoholic and telling him not to drink it. Why not just take the beer away from him in the first place?

I don't have an answer for #1 but for #2, temptations are all around us and a part of life. God realized this and was seeing how Adam could handle it. He failed. Now did God no this would happen, I don't think so. Is every human Christian or non-Christian responsible for our own actions? Yes.

 

[atlashunter]

Huh? You and your children if you teach them to live as you do, will be here with the child molesters and the thieves and all of satans legion...the crack addict..and will sell their bodies and their sisters for crack...well they do that now. Because all the good or semi good but forgiven will be raptured off the face of the earth, along with the holy spirit....satan will take over.....and you and only you will have to defend your children, you will have not one rightous one to help you, because only evil will be left here. Before that happens, I want to be raptured up out of here, with my child and grand children and brothers and sister who are saved. I do not want to be left behind on earth with only evil, imagine....like thunder dome or something....forsaken, forgotten, unremembered,hungry,unloved, lonely, sick, in pain, blind, lame, joyless, guilty, bored...... Lord have mercy Jesus, have mercy on all of us here, not just me.

Don't know about you but I'm not of the opinion that my loved ones deserve to be roasted regardless of their religious beliefs and I certainly wouldn't be content to have the wool pulled over my eyes by their judge and executioner to hide not only their suffering but their very existence from me. That's vile.

 

[mtnwoman]

Don't know about you but I'm not of the opinion that my loved ones deserve to be roasted regardless of their religious beliefs and I certainly wouldn't be content to have the wool pulled over my eyes by their judge and executioner to hide not only their suffering but their very existence from me. That's vile.

So I suppose you don't believe in the death penalty? A perv can molest or rape or kill a child and he shouldn't roast even if he is your bro....alrighty then. That's your opinion and you have the right to your opinion. I'd probably enjoy his roasting if it was before the rapture, but you could grieve if you like.

You can call me if you want to, but I can call you loco if I deem your bro sinful for choosing his sexual preference as being a 6 yr old boy....maybe he can't help it, he was born that way...perhaps if we keep changing the law, 6 will be the age of consent.....Lord I hope I'm up outta here by then....and that IS vile.

 

[atlashunter]

So I suppose you don't believe in the death penalty? A perv can molest or rape or kill a child and he shouldn't roast even if he is your bro....alrighty then. That's your opinion and you have the right to your opinion. I'd probably enjoy his roasting if it was before the rapture, but you could grieve if you like.

You can call me if you want to, but I can call you loco if I deem your bro sinful for choosing his sexual preference as being a 6 yr old boy....maybe he can't help it, he was born that way...perhaps if we keep changing the law, 6 will be the age of consent.....Lord I hope I'm up outta here by then....and that IS vile.

I'm all for justice but there is no justice in roasting someone forever for any crime. And to equate people who commit the crime of not sharing your religious beliefs with rapists and child molesters is absurd. I'm so glad I came to my senses and don't believe christian nonsense any more. I see it now for the evil that it is and I'm saddened to see others so caught up in it.

 

[centerpin fan]

Another man's sin shouldn't condemn me or you to eternal punishment.

It doesn't.

God did set up Adam to fail. Not putting a tree in the garden would have been setting Adam up not to fail. It's like putting a beer in front of a recovering alcoholic and telling him not to drink it.

No, it's like putting a kid in a petting zoo and saying, "Pet 'em all, kid -- the lamb, the goat, the pony, and the puppy. But see that cobra over there in the corner? Don't pet it because it's poisonous and will kill you."

Adam and Eve had it made in the shade.

 

[centerpin fan]

Are you familiar with John Shelby Spong? If there were ever a chance for me to become a Christian again, it would be his type of Christianity.

Spong's type of Christianity is not Christianity. He wouldn't be the first to make up his own faith, though.

 

[centerpin fan]

Details please.

Man's problem is death. Paul talks about it in Romans 6, among other places. Read On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius for a more thorough explanation.

 

[centerpin fan]

According to the Christian responses to the original question there are certain components that must be in place to have sin. We are told that explains why there is sin on earth but not heaven. Well who puts those components in place with foreknowledge of what the results will be?

See post #94.

 

[centerpin fan]

That's like the doctor prescribing a medication ...

Exactly. Jesus is The Great Healer.

 

[gemcgrew]

According to the Christian responses to the original question there are certain components that must be in place to have sin. We are told that explains why there is sin on earth but not heaven. Well who puts those components in place with foreknowledge of what the results will be?

There are many different takes on this. I see it from a supralapsarian view.

1. Elect some, reprobate rest
2. Create
3. Permit Fall
4. Provide salvation for elect
5. Call elect to salvation

 

[JB0704]

I hear you, JB. Are you familiar with John Shelby Spong? If there were ever a chance for me to become a Christian again, it would be his type of Christianity..

Never heard of him. I am in the middle of a crazy long reading list, but will look him up when I get the chance, and get his take on things.

As far as RZ goes. I've watched his videos, read his books, even went to hear him speak in Atlanta once. I really don't see what all the fuss is about. He make a decent case for a deity, but then he makes a hooooooooge leap to that deity being the God of the Bible. At least that's what I've observed of him.

I have said it on this board plenty, but, for me at least, the existence of a deity is a logical conclusion. Believing in Jesus is by faith.