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Is Jesus the only way?
- Thread starter Artfuldodger
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Election does make the answers easier as to how the sheepfold are told about Jesus.
The free will view makes it a little harder. It places man in the mix of spreading the message that Jesus is the only way. I hate to think about how many of the people Jesus died for who have already died without ever hearing about Jesus.
Some believe that Jesus died for all and the we know God by nature. That Jesus atoned "all" sin. So in that respect Jesus "is" the way.
That's fine but it doesn't answer "whosoever" believes.
Then there was the time before Christ. Adam believed only in a promise. He knew it would be the seed of a woman. I guess you could say that in this way he believed in Jesus.
After the flood or even after the garden people ventured all over the world and forgot about the promise. They believed in God but somehow forgot about the promise.
Now we as Free will believers must tell them or as Election believers, the Holy Spirit will tell them.
I believe in Free will but hope the Holy Spirit will tell them.
The free will view makes it a little harder. It places man in the mix of spreading the message that Jesus is the only way. I hate to think about how many of the people Jesus died for who have already died without ever hearing about Jesus.
Some believe that Jesus died for all and the we know God by nature. That Jesus atoned "all" sin. So in that respect Jesus "is" the way.
That's fine but it doesn't answer "whosoever" believes.
Then there was the time before Christ. Adam believed only in a promise. He knew it would be the seed of a woman. I guess you could say that in this way he believed in Jesus.
After the flood or even after the garden people ventured all over the world and forgot about the promise. They believed in God but somehow forgot about the promise.
Now we as Free will believers must tell them or as Election believers, the Holy Spirit will tell them.
I believe in Free will but hope the Holy Spirit will tell them.
With your insertion of "then" you create a chronology that is not in the scripture. The verb is best translated "having gone" (definitely a prior event...chronologically that is). Rather than write more I will recommend Dr. Gill.
hobbs27
Senior Member
I think adding the (ed) to the verb preach also made it a past tense. Which we all agree the event was past at the time this was written.
1peter 3:19 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol,
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
"He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit."
"after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm."
"After being made alive, he went"
"By which also he went"
"In that state He also went"
There is a chronology in this scripture. Jesus died a physical death and made alive in the spirit. In that state, which is now a spirit, he went.
The order is there. He is no longer alive as a physical man. He is alive in spirit form only. He went in that state. He is still in "time." The time from his physical death to his resurrection is around three days.
It was his spirit that went and not the Spirit that went. It was the 100% man part of his entity that went. It had to be "He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit."
So he went or in which he went. In that state he also went.
In that time he went.
"after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm."
"After being made alive, he went"
"By which also he went"
"In that state He also went"
There is a chronology in this scripture. Jesus died a physical death and made alive in the spirit. In that state, which is now a spirit, he went.
The order is there. He is no longer alive as a physical man. He is alive in spirit form only. He went in that state. He is still in "time." The time from his physical death to his resurrection is around three days.
It was his spirit that went and not the Spirit that went. It was the 100% man part of his entity that went. It had to be "He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit."
So he went or in which he went. In that state he also went.
In that time he went.
Who?
hobbs27
Senior Member
You really need to add to your library...
True, but translations of Aramaic NT isn't likely to make the list soon.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Yeah, I put that in there to raise a brow, just for fun.
May I suggest this fine book you can get on amazon? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Stuart_Russell
Or this one..both are great: https://www.amazon.com/Matthew-24-Fulfilled-John-Bray/dp/0915815907
MX5HIGH
Senior Member
Yes
Bob2010
Senior Member
I made it to here. I can't keep reading the next 3 pages of debate. You tagged it here. Some do believe that scripture in a way confirms that seeing Gods creation exposes one to God and there maybe some kind of unspoken grace there for people who never hear the name of Jesus. This whole notion of God being fair is funny. Is he fair by our standards or by his standards? Everyone wants to put God in a little box that they can understand. I tried that too before I accepted Christ by creating my own God. Then after I was saved I wanted to figure out the Trinity, election, and why a fair God would condemn someone who never heard of Jesus. The answer is simple. Both election and free will can be true and I don't have to understand God and his ways. People who never heard of Christ could go to H e l l. I can have salvation though! God was brutal in the Old Testament. We don't live in old Testament times. It's still the same God though. While God has not changed we have Jesus who saved us from the wrath of God. If Jesus is not the only way the he died for nothing! Do you believe your a good person? While yall bank on that getting you in to heaven I think I'll go with the Jesus!
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Jesus said, "if you have seen me, you have seen my Father." In your study of the Trinity is it possible God can tell whoever he wants to about Jesus? I agree we can't figure out God's fairness or judgement nor am I trying too.
Just wondering if someone knows God, then they might know Jesus. This could be accomplished by the Holy Spirit telling them so.
If you have seen God, then you have seen Jesus. Jesus died for the sins of the world.
Bob2010
Senior Member
I don't know what scripture it is. My Pastor talk about it. The biggest question he gets is "Do people that never hear the name of Jesus go to H e l l. Some scripture points to knowing God through seeing his creation etc. It's pretty clear though that they unfortunately do go to H e l l. That's why we are called to go to the end of the earth to tell everyone about Jesus . But just because I don't completely understand doesn't mean God doesn't have that figured out already.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
The only thing I know is, God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. I don't believe the salvation of others is dependent on us.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Your preacher could be referencing Romans 1:20;
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
I'm not sure this is addressing the whole world as this group suppresses the truth by their wickedness.
This group knows God. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.
For although they knew God they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks.
This group was without excuse to worship God. God will make it obvious to the individual that he wants to worship him.
This knowledge has to come from God and not man.
This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Corinthians 2:14
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 1 Corinthians 1:21
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."Romans 10:19
Jesus is the only way but where does the knowledge or message come from for God to have mercy on whom he will have mercy?
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Corinthians 2:14
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 1 Corinthians 1:21
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."Romans 10:19
Jesus is the only way but where does the knowledge or message come from for God to have mercy on whom he will have mercy?
Hunting One
New Member
Waking this old thread:
In the spirit of philosophical theological debate and not with the intent to offend anyone, I respectfully disagree.
Jesus is the only way to people that believe Jesus is the only way.
Here is what I mean: Christians believe Jesus is the way to salvation because this is what their "divine" or "divinely-inspired" writings tell them. This concept of course reinforces the community's belief in Christianity. While many people in this thread and elsewhere proclaim that they "know" this to be true, it is only true because they choose to believe so because of the scriptures and those before them that claim to "know." The reality is that no one really "knows" unless he/she has communicated with or experienced the divine. It is a concept accepted by "faith" in the community from which it originated.
In contrast, other religions throughout the world do not share in this belief because members of these communities have different experiences, perspectives, and writings that convince them otherwise. In the eyes of many of these people, the Christian way of thinking about salvation is wrong.
In essence, you have multiple groups of people declaring their beliefs about the world and the afterworld are superior to others because their writings tell them so.
Who is correct? What is the actual answer to original question of the thread?
...Only God knows.
Metaphorically speaking, I believe God is like a diamond. Every religion or belief system in the world is trying see and understand the "brilliance" and "sparkle" of what we call God. While we quibble about what this is, we often fail to see that we are all looking at the same thing. However, like a diamond in the light, when we look at God from different angles, this brilliance looks differently to different people. No matter what anyone may profess or claim to know in this earthly realm, this is a truth.
Consequently, I have a hard time believing that "Satan's den" is in the cards for the many exceptionally good people of other faiths - such as the Dalai Lama, Ghandi, etc. - that have and are practicing the positive principles that are universally accepted as "good." They were/are the way they were/are because this is how they see "the light." Are all of these people wrong? Only God knows the answer.
Thus, it seems to me, if I want to hedge my salvational bet, it would be wise to focus on right thought and good works throughout my life. This is to me faith in action. It brings inner peace in this life; whereas, the alternative sows discord and discontent. Whether or not this does me any good after I leave this earthly realm, I do not know. In the end, God will decide.
In the spirit of philosophical theological debate and not with the intent to offend anyone, I respectfully disagree.
Jesus is the only way to people that believe Jesus is the only way.
Here is what I mean: Christians believe Jesus is the way to salvation because this is what their "divine" or "divinely-inspired" writings tell them. This concept of course reinforces the community's belief in Christianity. While many people in this thread and elsewhere proclaim that they "know" this to be true, it is only true because they choose to believe so because of the scriptures and those before them that claim to "know." The reality is that no one really "knows" unless he/she has communicated with or experienced the divine. It is a concept accepted by "faith" in the community from which it originated.
In contrast, other religions throughout the world do not share in this belief because members of these communities have different experiences, perspectives, and writings that convince them otherwise. In the eyes of many of these people, the Christian way of thinking about salvation is wrong.
In essence, you have multiple groups of people declaring their beliefs about the world and the afterworld are superior to others because their writings tell them so.
Who is correct? What is the actual answer to original question of the thread?
...Only God knows.
Metaphorically speaking, I believe God is like a diamond. Every religion or belief system in the world is trying see and understand the "brilliance" and "sparkle" of what we call God. While we quibble about what this is, we often fail to see that we are all looking at the same thing. However, like a diamond in the light, when we look at God from different angles, this brilliance looks differently to different people. No matter what anyone may profess or claim to know in this earthly realm, this is a truth.
Consequently, I have a hard time believing that "Satan's den" is in the cards for the many exceptionally good people of other faiths - such as the Dalai Lama, Ghandi, etc. - that have and are practicing the positive principles that are universally accepted as "good." They were/are the way they were/are because this is how they see "the light." Are all of these people wrong? Only God knows the answer.
Thus, it seems to me, if I want to hedge my salvational bet, it would be wise to focus on right thought and good works throughout my life. This is to me faith in action. It brings inner peace in this life; whereas, the alternative sows discord and discontent. Whether or not this does me any good after I leave this earthly realm, I do not know. In the end, God will decide.
gordon 2
Senior Member
You have a point, but only to a point.
Many Christians experience Jesus today, yet they do not physically see him they claim to have personally encountered Jesus. This experience they claim is for God's grace and the sacrifice of the cross.
Now what is there to point that Jesus experienced this way is not experienced or encountered by non Christians today or in the past but they cannot identify Him as savoir not knowing the cross? They know/knew not it is Him not knowing the experience of the sacrifice on the cross, yet they walk ( act) with Him as the Hebrews did. And when they walked with Him knowing His will and living with Him in their hearts though they knew Him not as our Christian savoir, not as "our" Jesus... by faith-walk are they not His, and yet Him their salvation, and so said saved as we mean it, that they walked/walk by faith as we do?
I have always been curious about the use of a Samaritan in the parable of The Good Samaritan's , "Who's your neighbor?" especially in light of this:
"You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews."
Now was the woman at the well saved? And this before the cross? Did she know this rabbi, which she saw to speak to, was her savoir? Did she walk by faith after her talk with our Jesus yet she knew Him not as such?
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