Just wondering.

SemperFiDawg · Nov 3, 2016

This question occurred to me after I posted on Strings previous thread and I was interested in you guys feedback. It's NOT a spin on Pascal's wager, so if you get that from my question then I've worded it inappropriately. Just let me know and I will try to clarify. OK. Here goes.

Given Mans paradox: One must have faith that God exists in order to experience him, but we form faith in something AFTER an experience.

What is keeping you personally from, making the commitment of faith?

Personally. I felt like I would be viewed as a fool for making the leap. It was so counter-intuitive to every instinct and premonition I ever had. But, I thought, "What the heck. I've made a fool out of myself many a time. What's one more? If it's not true and doesn't work out I'm not the only one who's fell for it. There's literally billions of others who have too. ". I'm glad I did. Now I sit here marveling at the simplicity of it. Note I said simplicity, not "ease of it". It wasn't easy to make that commitment to truly believe. At least for me it wasn't.

bullethead · Nov 3, 2016

I found it absurd to believe a god could create everything except it's own bible. When I was able to look at religion, faith, belief objectively without any bias I was convinced that if a god exists I do not know it by or through the writings of man. Because of my upbringing, location in the world and culture I was raised under one religion. I later realized that what I was taught was incorrect and there was so more to learn about "my" religion and then I had another couple thousand religions to research before I could narrow some choices.
What I've gathered so far is that if a god exists it may be nothing like the versions that mankind has conjured up.
Why just pick one and hope it is the correct one?

Israel · Nov 7, 2016

bullethead said:
I found it absurd to believe a god could create everything except it's own bible. When I was able to look at religion, faith, belief objectively without any bias I was convinced that if a god exists I do not know it by or through the writings of man. Because of my upbringing, location in the world and culture I was raised under one religion. I later realized that what I was taught was incorrect and there was so more to learn about "my" religion and then I had another couple thousand religions to research before I could narrow some choices.
What I've gathered so far is that if a god exists it may be nothing like the versions that mankind has conjured up.
Why just pick one and hope it is the correct one?

True.
Being raised "under" religion means nothing of itself.

bullethead · Nov 7, 2016

Israel said:
True.
Being raised "under" religion means nothing of itself.

Glad you agree with the rest of it.
And if I were able to have worded the sentence you disagree with in a shakespearian manner you would have agreed with it too. I figured if the word/ meaning was good enough to be included in the Pledge of Allegiance it would fit here too. In all honesty though I try to communicate to the majority on here in layman's terms because that is where I fit myself.
If I have to adjust my writing style like I am writing a 15th century theatrical play then I know it is for an audience I would rather not have.

Israel · Nov 7, 2016

bullethead said:
Glad you agree with the rest of it.
And if I were able to have worded the sentence you disagree with in a shakespearian manner you would have agreed with it too. I figured if the word/ meaning was good enough to be included in the Pledge of Allegiance it would fit here too. In all honesty though I try to communicate to the majority on here in layman's terms because that is where I fit myself.
If I have to adjust my writing style like I am writing a 15th century theatrical play then I know it is for an audience I would rather not have.

Where you might easily find equality with "under God" (as I take your pledge of allegiance reference) with under religion, I trust you would find few who understand themselves to be disciples of Jesus Christ in agreement.

Religion is easily definable by man, Jesus Christ is not subject to such. He defines man. You, and me, both.

bullethead · Nov 7, 2016

Israel said:
Where you might easily find equality with "under God" (as I take your pledge of allegiance reference) with under religion, I trust you would find few who understand themselves to be disciples of Jesus Christ in agreement.

Religion is easily definable by man, Jesus Christ is not subject to such. He defines man. You, and me, both.

Anything to back up your thoughts?

660griz · Nov 9, 2016

SemperFiDawg said:
What is keeping you personally from, making the commitment of faith?

Common sense.

East River Guide · Dec 6, 2016

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.

ambush80 · Dec 8, 2016

East River Guide said:
We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.

But they all have proof that theirs and theirs alone is real.

Many of the discussions around here have been about proof. Many of the most reasonable posters will admit that their proof is very personal and subjective, we have to take their word for it. They claim that either one is chosen for revelation or that revelation can be had for the asking. It's hard to square those two things up. For those who have sought revelation and failed, it's their fault because they didn't do it right.

SemperFiDawg · Dec 8, 2016

East River Guide said:
We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.

Oh plueeeeese. Spare use all the agony of having to discuss for the gazzilionth time the sassy, but ill-thought- out memes of the shallow athietism. It's a personal question. The least you could do is give a personal answer.

SemperFiDawg · Dec 8, 2016

ambush80 said:
For those who have sought revelation and failed, it's their fault because they didn't do it right.

I don't know that to be true, and in all honesty I can't recall ( I reserve the right to be corrected) any of the believers 'here' making that statement to any of you AAs to that effect though I CAN see that happening public ally given the views with which each side views the other as a whole.

Otherwise, well said.

Artfuldodger · Dec 8, 2016

SemperFiDawg said:
I don't know that to be true, and in all honesty I can't recall ( I reserve the right to be corrected) any of the believers 'here' making that statement to any of you AAs to that effect though I CAN see that happening public ally given the views with which each side views the other as a whole.

Otherwise, well said.

I don't recall it being the individuals fault for not "getting" the revelation. I have heard on this forum that one has to receive this "ability" to receive the revelations from God.

It is said that God must open their eyes. Scripture says that one must go through Jesus to get to God. Scripture also says that to get to Jesus, it has to come from God.

So maybe the above path to salvation is true. It does sound a bit circular.

I think most Christians believe each individual has the ability to "get" the revelation without God's help. So in that sense, it is the individuals fault if he doesn't act on it.

ambush80 · Dec 8, 2016

SemperFiDawg said:
I don't know that to be true, and in all honesty I can't recall ( I reserve the right to be corrected) any of the believers 'here' making that statement to any of you AAs to that effect though I CAN see that happening public ally given the views with which each side views the other as a whole.

Otherwise, well said.

Many de-conversion stories have been countered with either "You didn't do it right so you never really had it" or "It didn't take because you weren't chosen to receive it".

ambush80 · Dec 8, 2016

Artfuldodger said:
I don't recall it being the individuals fault for not "getting" the revelation. I have heard on this forum that one has to receive this "ability" to receive the revelations from God.

It is said that God must open their eyes. Scripture says that one must go through Jesus to get to God. Scripture also says that to get to Jesus, it has to come from God.

So maybe the above path to salvation is true. It does sound a bit circular.

This^is Predestination.

Artfuldodger said:
I think most Christians believe each individual has the ability to "get" the revelation without God's help. So in that sense, it is the individuals fault if he doesn't act on it.

This^is Freewill.

From what I recall, you were leaning towards the logically consistent position of Predestination (given omniscience). How's that working out?

SemperFiDawg · Dec 8, 2016

ambush80 said:
Many de-conversion stories have been countered with either "You didn't do it right so you never really had it" or "It didn't take because you weren't chosen to receive it".

I think that maybe you're painting with too broad of a brush. JMHO

ambush80 · Dec 8, 2016

SemperFiDawg said:
I think that maybe you're painting with too broad of a brush. JMHO

All of the Predestination believers will tell non-believers that they don't believe because they're not supposed to. Most Freewill believers will tell the non-believer that they aren't doing it right. I won't go through the threads but I'm certain both instances have happened here many times to various people. Find Bullethead's and Isreal's go around. Find anything said by Gemcgrew or Welder guy on the subject.

If "many" is too broad a brush, what word is the appropriate sized brush?

bullethead · Dec 8, 2016

ambush80 said:
All of the Predestination believers will tell non-believers that they don't believe because they're not supposed to. Most Freewill believers will tell the non-believer that they aren't doing it right. I won't go through the threads but I'm certain both instances have happened here many times to various people. Find Bullethead's and Isreal's go around. Find anything said by Gemcgrew or Welder guy on the subject.

If "many" is too broad a brush, what word is the appropriate sized brush?

^^^^^^!

Artfuldodger · Dec 8, 2016

ambush80 said:
From what I recall, you were leaning towards the logically consistent position of Predestination (given omniscience). How's that working out?

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Luke 24:45
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Romans 9:17
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

If God controlled my beginning and will control my end, then I can only assume he's controlling everything in between as he did from Adam to Jesus' resurrection.

Answer; predestination

Now I can skip that Colonoscopy!

Israel · Dec 9, 2016

“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.

Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

SemperFiDawg · Dec 9, 2016

Israel said:
“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.

Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.

We're talking about the one's who didn't get 'the call', but it really goes back to my original question which is a personal question. Was hoping for personal answers and not a long painful slide into beating a dead horse conversation of free will vs. predestination.

Just wondering.

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