A guy walks into your church ...

[hobbs27]

Many will try to come into the sheepfold by some other way. But they are robbers.

Robbers of His Glory.

They have a form of Godliness, but deny the power thereof. (willfully ignorant)

The sheep left the old covenant and followed Jesus into the new... They found rest in His barn, while the goats stayed behind and were destroyed.

 

[welderguy]

The sheep left the old covenant and followed Jesus into the new... They found rest in His barn, while the goats stayed behind and were destroyed.

John 10:27-28

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I guess where you and I differ is our concept of "hearing His voice".
I believe it's by an effectual call, independent on man in any way.

You seem to think it needs man's help in some form. Am I correct?

 

[hobbs27]

John 10:27-28

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I guess where you and I differ is our concept of "hearing His voice".
I believe it's by an effectual call, independent on man in any way.

You seem to think it needs man's help in some form. Am I correct?

No.. Our difference is you think the above is about Salvation today, when it was about inheriting the Kingdom .

 

[Artfuldodger]

The promise came.. Luke 21:31

Can you show us scripture that explains how God stopped being in control after "it was finished?" We've discussed this before. You see God controlling the chain of events leading up to "it is finished" and then turning everything over to chance/choice. That he needed to do this to make sure his plan was accomplished. That since his plan is "finished" he no longer needs to control through hardening and softening.
Would you say that now everyone receives the "Light." Even those who have never heard the gospel? Do the tiny villagers and Muslims receive an effectual calling?
Now that it is "finished?"

 

[welderguy]

No.. Our difference is you think the above is about Salvation today, when it was about inheriting the Kingdom .

"give unto them eternal life" doesn't equate to salvation ?

I agree, it is also about inheriting the kingdom now, but that is only the tip of this iceberg. There's SO much more in there.

 

[Artfuldodger]

No.. Our difference is you think the above is about Salvation today, when it was about inheriting the Kingdom .

What's the difference? Wouldn't one need salvation to enter the kingdom? Even if the kingdom was on the earth? Even salvation from the destruction of Jerusalem?

 

[hobbs27]

"give unto them eternal life" doesn't equate to salvation ?

I agree, it is also about inheriting the kingdom now, but that is only the tip of this iceberg. There's SO much more in there.

Look. The Kingdom of God belonged to Jerusalem and the old covenant system . Torah was all about Jesus. Everything about the old covenant system pointed to a coming Messiah, that would grant eternal life, and His kingdom would reign forever. He would forgive His people of sin that they may have eternal life.

The old covenant physical Kingdom was taken away from the scribes and Pharisee and given to King Jesus and His priests and kings.
So the elect were Christians, but they were elected to be rulers with Jesus and Co heirs of the inheritance with Jesus. This Kingdom came at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad per Luke 21:31.

Now that the Kingdom is come and Christ rules , what must one do to be saved?
Take of the water of life which is freely given... To take is to do... Everything is accomplished and laid out before you, ready for you to choose.. To take. To live forever.

Revelation 22!

I ask if you want to continue this conversation we take it to Arts thread on the Co heirs of Christ, since they were the elect.

 

[Vectorman]

Back to the OP, something very similar to this happened to a pastor friend of mine. The question of whether or not you allow the individual to join your group is their attitude and motive. The individual was the son of a church member who I'm sure heard many many times from his mother that he needs to be in church. But his desire was not to search for and find truth, he wanted to stand before the church and try to convince the congregation that his lifestyle was acceptable because God made him this way. I think his statement was "y'all are just going to have to get use to me". My pastor friend rightly said no, you will not use this platform to promote homosexuality. The pastor offered to privately council the man about the Bible's teaching on homosexuality, that offered was rejected. The man left angry, his mother left angry. I say the pastor was spot on with how he handled this situation. What say you?

 

[centerpin fan]

Back to the OP, something very similar to this happened to a pastor friend of mine. The question of whether or not you allow the individual to join your group is their attitude and motive. The individual was the son of a church member who I'm sure heard many many times from his mother that he needs to be in church. But his desire was not to search for and find truth, he wanted to stand before the church and try to convince the congregation that his lifestyle was acceptable because God made him this way. I think his statement was "y'all are just going to have to get use to me". My pastor friend rightly said no, you will not use this platform to promote homosexuality. The pastor offered to privately council the man about the Bible's teaching on homosexuality, that offered was rejected. The man left angry, his mother left angry. I say the pastor was spot on with how he handled this situation. What say you?

It sounds like your friend told him he needed to repent in order to be saved.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Vectorman, If your pastor man was spot on, how does that work with your quote on the "grace" thread;

"And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

 

[Vectorman]

Vectorman, If your pastor man was spot on, how does that work with your quote on the "grace" thread;

"And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

My pastor friends situation had nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with his responsibility of protecting the flock from false teaching. It would be no different if someone wanted to stand in front of your church and promote any sinful lifestyle or bad theology. The homosexual would have been welcomed to come and worship, join a bible study etc, but he wanted to promote his agenda. That's why I said it's about his attitude or motive, if he wants to learn, yes please come, if he wants to teach.....no.

 

[centerpin fan]

My pastor friends situation had nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with his responsibility of protecting the flock from false teaching. It would be no different if someone wanted to stand in front of your church and promote any sinful lifestyle or bad theology. The homosexual would have been welcomed to come and worship, join a bible study etc, but he wanted to promote his agenda. That's why I said it's about his attitude or motive, if he wants to learn, yes please come, if he wants to teach.....no.

The OP was not about coming to a service or joining a Bible study. It was about him (and his boyfriend and soon-to-be husband) becoming members of the church and fully participating in all aspects of the church -- teaching Sunday School, for example.

What would you tell the guy?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Then if salvation is by grace alone, it comes with the stipulation that if one doesn't repent, then could this be proof that he wasn't saved?
Would the fruit of the Holy Spirit be the proof? If salvation is by grace and not of works, I don't see it any other way.

 

[Artfuldodger]

If salvation is from grace alone, then I don't see any other way than Election. Otherwise we are getting into something man must do such as repentance. Man isn't capable of doing that, only the Holy Spirit working within is capable of doing such a feat.

 

[centerpin fan]

My pastor friends situation had nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with his responsibility of protecting the flock from false teaching. It would be no different if someone wanted to stand in front of your church and promote any sinful lifestyle or bad theology. The homosexual would have been welcomed to come and worship, join a bible study etc, but he wanted to promote his agenda. That's why I said it's about his attitude or motive, if he wants to learn, yes please come, if he wants to teach.....no.

Again, the OP is not about someone coming into the church trying to push an agenda. Here's a real life example of what I'm talking about:

John, a 64-year-old theologian and dean of St. Albans Cathedral, has made no secret of his own homosexuality, and is in a civil partnership with another priest, a relationship he says is celibate. He has also made clear his support for same-sex marriage.

That has made John the subject of hard-liners’ ire. Supporters say his honesty about his homosexuality, and his views about same-sex marriage, have cost him the bishop’s seat, while some other bishops are known to be “quietly gay.”

John, who declined to be interviewed, is viewed by many as a “poster boy” for homosexuality in the church.

https://sojo.net/articles/anglican-...-gay-theologian-bishop-7-times-unity-possible

Do you have any questions or concerns about an openly gay bishop? Is it OK for a bishop to be "quietly gay"?

 

[Vectorman]

The OP was not about coming to a service or joining a Bible study. It was about him (and his boyfriend and soon-to-be husband) becoming members of the church and fully participating in all aspects of the church -- teaching Sunday School, for example.

What would you tell the guy?

I attend a home church of about 20 people. We have an untraditional service in that after the sermon, we take a short break and then we all discuss the sermon and other topics that come up. In my situation, our church doesn't have a "membership roll" and all the baggage that goes along with it. They would be welcomed to come and learn and participate in discussions. They would not be allowed to promote the homosexual lifestyle and would definately hear how destructive it is to them and the country/society as a whole during our discussion. They would probably feel very uncomfortable in our group. If they insisted on promoting their homosexual agenda or became hostile to others at church, then they would be asked to find another place. In the past 5 years, we have ask 2 people not to come back. Neither was for the issue that we are discussing.

If I was in a traditional setting and I was for my entire life prior to this home church. I would not permit the couple to assume any kind of leadership position in the fellowship where they might possibility influence other immature believers that their lifestyle was acceptable.

But, this has nothing to do with salvation, the first step in desiring a change in behavior for these folks is an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That only comes after they trust in the finished work of Christ.

 

[centerpin fan]

But, this has nothing to do with salvation, the first step in desiring a change in behavior for these folks is an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That only comes after they trust in the finished work of Christ.

I tried to make this clear in the OP, but I'll say it again: the guy in the OP has trusted in the finished work of Christ and believes exactly as you do, except for the part about his lifestyle being "destructive". He has absolutely no intentions of changing his lifestyle.

 

[Artfuldodger]

But, this has nothing to do with salvation, the first step in desiring a change in behavior for these folks is an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That only comes after they trust in the finished work of Christ.

I'm interested too, if it has nothing to do with salvation, what does it have to do with?

 

[Vectorman]

Again, the OP is not about someone coming into the church trying to push an agenda. Here's a real life example of what I'm talking about:

John, a 64-year-old theologian and dean of St. Albans Cathedral, has made no secret of his own homosexuality, and is in a civil partnership with another priest, a relationship he says is celibate. He has also made clear his support for same-sex marriage.

That has made John the subject of hard-liners’ ire. Supporters say his honesty about his homosexuality, and his views about same-sex marriage, have cost him the bishop’s seat, while some other bishops are known to be “quietly gay.”

John, who declined to be interviewed, is viewed by many as a “poster boy” for homosexuality in the church.

https://sojo.net/articles/anglican-...-gay-theologian-bishop-7-times-unity-possible

Do you have any questions or concerns about an openly gay bishop? Is it OK for a bishop to be "quietly gay"?

There is an old saying about there being a church out there for everybody but not every church is for everybody.

I would never attend a church that was under the authority of a denomination or a bishop. If I decided to attend a denominational church, I would never attend a church which had openly(quietly or not) gay leadership or leadership that promoted/supported/approved of same sex marriage. For me it's very simple that they are not reading from the same book that I am, or they think that the book has errors in it. I have nothing personal against any person regardless of their sexual orientation. I love to sit down with folks and have a conversation about the bible and strive to show God's love to them so there might be a day when I can share the hope that we have.

 

[centerpin fan]

But, this has nothing to do with salvation ...

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

-- 1 Cor. 6:9-10