centerpin fan
Senior Member
During such a conversation, would you tell the person they need to repent?
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A guy walks into your church ...
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During such a conversation, would you tell the person they need to repent?
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
There is a reference in the link to the book of Titus;
Titus 1:6-8
An elder must be blameless, the husband of one wife, having children who are believers and are not open to accusation of indiscretion or insubordination. 7As God’s steward, an overseer must be above reproach — not self-absorbed, not quick tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not greedy for money. 8Instead, he must be hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.
That's a hard row to hoe. He has to be married. He has to have children. His children have to be believers.
Besides all of that other stuff. But is this about salvation or being a Church elder?
Perhaps we are confusing who can be Church elders or members for what ever reason vs who are saved by grace and not works.
Then again if you believe someone has salvation, they should be Christian enough to join your Church.
It's like saying, you may be saved by grace but your works and/or repentance isn't good enough for "man." You may be good enough for God to grant you salvation by grace but you aren't good enough by works for "man."
Vectorman
Senior Member
Then he would not be allowed to join, lead, teach etc. After a short period of time they probably would not be allowed to participate.
centerpin fan
Senior Member
Agreed.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
You forgot to add verse 11;
11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Vectorman
Senior Member
For salvation? No
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
How do you explain to someone they are saved by grace and not works but also explain to them that if they don't produce works they aren't saved?
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I guess we could tell them they are saved by grace and not works. That they have salvation. Yet explain to them that although you can't quit sinning(repent), you should at least try. If you don't at least try then you can no longer come to our Church.
That works don't make or take away from salvation, they add to it. Like a person joining a club but not joining any comittees or doing any club work. They are in the club as they have paid their dues,(Jesus did for us) yet they don't do anything above and beyond.
That doesn't take away your salvation, we just feel like it may lead our congregation down the wrong path. You might do better to attend another Church or worship alone. We aren't doubting your salvation by grace, we just don't personally believe in the same doctrine as you.
It would be like a free will believer trying to join a Election believing Church. Perhaps they all have salvation, they just don't agree with how they gained it. Now if the free will believer just sit their and listened, ok, but if he constantly said, "no wa" at every mention of predestination.
Or a Preterist going to a Futurist church and shouting "70 AD" throughout the sermon.
That works don't make or take away from salvation, they add to it. Like a person joining a club but not joining any comittees or doing any club work. They are in the club as they have paid their dues,(Jesus did for us) yet they don't do anything above and beyond.
That doesn't take away your salvation, we just feel like it may lead our congregation down the wrong path. You might do better to attend another Church or worship alone. We aren't doubting your salvation by grace, we just don't personally believe in the same doctrine as you.
It would be like a free will believer trying to join a Election believing Church. Perhaps they all have salvation, they just don't agree with how they gained it. Now if the free will believer just sit their and listened, ok, but if he constantly said, "no wa" at every mention of predestination.
Or a Preterist going to a Futurist church and shouting "70 AD" throughout the sermon.
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Vectorman
Senior Member
I'm not saying they are not saved, I'm saying that because of their behavior, we have to exclude them from participating in fellowship with the other believers at this church. Paul describes such an issue in 1 Cor 5. Then in 2 Cor 2 he describes bringing the now repentant believer back into the fellowship.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
OK, I think I figured out what you meant after I asked. That's the way I see it too.
That being said though, it makes it sound like we are saying to them "you are good enough for God, but not us."
Vectorman
Senior Member
It's probably one of the most difficult things you will ever have to do in church leadership. It always causes strained relationships not only with the member with the behavior problem but also with their friends/family etc. Not addressing these behavior problems may seem easier but that will cause worse behavior issues in the future.
The Bible speaks many times about leaven(sin) starting small but eventually working it's way through the whole batch.
centerpin fan
Senior Member
So the guy in the OP, the unrepentant gay prostitute, could be a saved. Correct?
Vectorman
Senior Member
Correct
Vectorman
Senior Member
It's probably very clear but I'll go ahead and spell out my position for everybody:
Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. It is trusting in the finished work of Christ for one's salvation. You can do no works to attain it, you can do no works to maintain it. It is normally followed by changes in one's behavior but this is a process that happens over the remainder of one's lifetime. This behavior change is not an automatic event especially with a new believer that is not discipled by a church or other believers.
Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. It is trusting in the finished work of Christ for one's salvation. You can do no works to attain it, you can do no works to maintain it. It is normally followed by changes in one's behavior but this is a process that happens over the remainder of one's lifetime. This behavior change is not an automatic event especially with a new believer that is not discipled by a church or other believers.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
Maybe the couple in the OP were the result of "bad workmanship."
Nope, the verse says "created in Christ Jesus to do good works."
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
Maybe the couple in the OP were the result of "bad workmanship."
Nope, the verse says "created in Christ Jesus to do good works."
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
It does take grace to make one repent. From the "Things grace can do" thread.
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
It does take grace to make one repent. From the "Things grace can do" thread.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
To beat Centerpin Fan to the punch, what about the couple in the OP? They said that God has elected them for salvation yet they are in no way going to repent from sin.
Considering that grace leads to repentance, and we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, what do we conclude about the couple in the OP?
Not to deny that one's repentance from sin comes from God's grace.
If they claim to be elect and claim to have a desire to follow Jesus, why would they want to continue in their sinful rebellion?
Bible says destruction of the flesh happens outside the church. This is why folks are sometimes turned out, for their own good.
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Are we instructed/commanded to "conclude"?
Are we instructed relative to the case in question?
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