Accuracy: Too much of a good thing?

[FlipKing]

I'm not old by any stretch and maybe this is just a personal problem/addiction. Way back when if you could hit a pie plate, you were good. The. 2-3" groups were considered good. Then came normalizing 1 moa. And now we are dropping below 1moa. If I buy a rifle and it's not under 1moa, I lose interest and confidence in it. I don't even reload, just factory ammo. Have we reached the pinnacle of factory accuracy? I feel like rifles are exceeding shooters at this point already. Just some ramblings I was thinking about the other day. Thoughts?

 

[JustUs4All]

Every rifle I have ever shot could shoot better than I could hold it and I started shooting a very long time ago.

 

[Railroader]

I'm not old by any stretch and maybe this is just a personal problem/addiction. Way back when if you could hit a pie plate, you were good. The. 2-3" groups were considered good. Then came normalizing 1 moa. And now we are dropping below 1moa. If I buy a rifle and it's not under 1moa, I lose interest and confidence in it. I don't even reload, just factory ammo. Have we reached the pinnacle of factory accuracy? I feel like rifles are exceeding shooters at this point already. Just some ramblings I was thinking about the other day. Thoughts?

I'm 53, and a "pie plate" was never good enough for my Dad.

I wasn't allowed to deer hunt until I was busting snuff cans at 100, with confidence.

He busted eggs at 100 with confidence.

Back in the 90s, I was trained as a Swat Sniper. Had to turn in "3 Touching" once a pay period.

I held my grandson The Kid, who is 9, to the snuff can at 100 standard like Daddy did me. It worked for him, took his first deer this past fall.

If he wants to pursue three touching, that'll take a little more effort.

But his rifle will do it.

What I have seen, is that just about any Ol' Rifle off the shelf will shoot an inch at 100 these days. I believe that computerized machining has made triggers, actions, and barrels more precise, and MUCH cheaper.

But, being able to take advantage of these improvements in technology still takes some effort.

And a lot of people still think a pie plate is good enough to go hunting.

One trip to a public range in mid September is enough to make a shooter who also hunts cringe.

Most hunters are not shooters, and don't care to be.

And that's a shame.

 

[transfixer]

Agree with Railroader, I didn't start out being an accuracy snob, but somewhere in my early 20's I started down that journey, My Dad and I started reloading somewhere around the same time, I still reload, if a rifle won't shoot at least 1moa with more than one load I won't use it. I started out as a hunter who got into shooting, now I'm a shooter who hunts, I just shake my head every time I read a post about someone shooting a deer and losing it cause of " such and such" bullet didn't work right ,,, or that caliber is no good cause I lost two deer with that caliber, or I now hunt with a 7mag cause I got tired of losing deer ,,,, 99% of the time it ain't about the caliber or the bullet,,,, its where you put the shot !

Rifles are exceeding the majority of shooters,, but if you're willing to put the time and effort into it,, you can get awfully close to what the rifle is capable of .

 

[NCHillbilly]

Every rifle I have ever shot could shoot better than I could hold it and I started shooting a very long time ago.

This.

I would not hunt with a rifle I had "pie plate" accuracy with, neither now, or back in the 70s. It doesn't have to be cloverleaf tack driving, but I expect all my bullets to be in the same small region of the target, at least.

 

[Dub]

Great reply @Railroader



Back when I used to golf a couple times each week....I let my standard on my equipment being it would be upgraded when it was what limited my progress.

Applying that standard to shooting equipment is a mixed bag.....depending on the company and their quality assurance standards.

We are blessed to be able to shop wisely and find a very accurate off-the-rack gun for under $600. Many actually come with good triggers.

The scales of economy seem to be different regarding scopes...and again, very dependent on the companies regard to quality assurance.

With a reputable company you can find solid scopes at low prices...providing you go with basic reticle & simple magnification. The lens coatings really have some pop when new. The budget companies coatings may degrade sooner...even though they look good in the store in comparison to the nicer scopes. 5 years later what do you have?

Some companies offer the "no questions asked replacement policy".....make no mistake about it....the cost of such is reflected somewhere in their product line....someone is paying for that policy.

Some offer a dang near bullet-proof optic and take serious measures to ensure your gear will not fail. That's reflected in price, too. I'd rather pay for that than something that may be sent back multiple times to get the same iffy quality for a replacement.


The competition shooting events are really helping up the ante on quality and shooter capability. Hopefully this will continue.....the more new shooters that are attracted the better. We will all do well when the ranges are full.....stores are selling guns, ammo & optics at high volumes. The more guns in common ownership among our citizens the better.



All the new shooters certainly put a strain on an unprepared market, however, once the market recovers inventories with all those new shooters on board....EXCELLENCE will occur.

The liberal trash will have a steepened uphill battle with each new shooter...new hunter...new leagues, etc.



There will still be hunters that are okay with their box of ammo a year.....but they are becoming a minority as more hunters are enjoying the shooting when markets allow.

The handgun range is clearly doing better business, or at least appears so. Each time I visit I see more shooters. I'm glad to see it.

 

[Baroque Brass]

I'm 53, and a "pie plate" was never good enough for my Dad.

I wasn't allowed to deer hunt until I was busting snuff cans at 100, with confidence.

He busted eggs at 100 with confidence.

Back in the 90s, I was trained as a Swat Sniper. Had to turn in "3 Touching" once a pay period.

I held my grandson The Kid, who is 9, to the snuff can at 100 standard like Daddy did me. It worked for him, took his first deer this past fall.

If he wants to pursue three touching, that'll take a little more effort.

But his rifle will do it.

What I have seen, is that just about any Ol' Rifle off the shelf will shoot an inch at 100 these days. I believe that computerized machining has made triggers, actions, and barrels more precise, and MUCH cheaper.

But, being able to take advantage of these improvements in technology still takes some effort.

And a lot of people still think a pie plate is good enough to go hunting.

One trip to a public range in mid September is enough to make a shooter who also hunts cringe.

Most hunters are not shooters, and don't care to be.

And that's a shame.

You are so right about the public ranges in September. When I was working at one, so many hunters had not a clue about ballistics and how to zero a scope. They’d scatter shots all over a target and say that’s good enough to kill a deer. I’m not happy if I can’t shoot at least five sub MOA, even better when ten are sub MOA. Then you had the 300 winmag white tail hunters that used the overkill caliber so they wouldn’t have to look for the animal. A deer can be made DRT with a well placed .22 long rifle or .22 magnum. Those calibers aren’t legal but in the right hands they are certainly lethal.

 

[HughW2]

I started hunting in 1975 and at that point 90% of guns in the deer woods were divided between three to four rifles: Win 94, Marlin 336, Remington 742 in .30-06 or if you had money a Browning BAR. To Flipkings point I remember the pie plate being the acceptable rule of thumb. Losing faith is easy if your rifle can’t easily keep an 1 1/2” and I strive to have three shots touching but don’t get upset if a rifle can’t do too much better than an inch. To Flipking’s point we have it pretty good with accuracy delivered by most rifles; I just miss the quality in terms of build and looks of factory rifles. Quality of workmanship is poor compared to what we had in 1970 - 1990. No gun companies are willing to pay for quality workmanship or walnut.

 

[FlipKing]

Springfield offers 0.75 moa guarantee with the waypoint. Christensen offers half moa with their premium offerings. Will we ever see Tikka or Savage offer those kind of guarantees? Most shooters I know couldn't shoot that well on their best day. Lol

 

[Railroader]

Agree with Railroader, I didn't start out being an accuracy snob, but somewhere in my early 20's I started down that journey, My Dad and I started reloading somewhere around the same time, I still reload, if a rifle won't shoot at least 1moa with more than one load I won't use it. I started out as a hunter who got into shooting, now I'm a shooter who hunts, I just shake my head every time I read a post about someone shooting a deer and losing it cause of " such and such" bullet didn't work right ,,, or that caliber is no good cause I lost two deer with that caliber, or I now hunt with a 7mag cause I got tired of losing deer ,,,, 99% of the time it ain't about the caliber or the bullet,,,, its where you put the shot !

Rifles are exceeding the majority of shooters,, but if you're willing to put the time and effort into it,, you can get awfully close to what the rifle is capable of .

Accuracy snob....I like that!

Back in the day, I had almost $1400 tied up in a 10-22...But MAN that thing would shoot.

A cop buddy of mine had one, too. And we had a BLAST trying to outshoot each other. We were buying bricks of match grade ammo from CCI and Eley, at CRAZY prices in those days. We got good enough that normal ammo actually would not do. Our police range measured 86 yards, and we were shooting at 9mm brass, and trying to strike kitchen matches by the time we gave up our accuracy snobbery.

10 in a 1" stick on dot had become old hat, ho-hum, so what?

It was a bunch of fun, and made nearly certain work of shooting crows at 200 with a .22-250.

It also made turning in that "three touching target" every two weeks easy as well.

Ain't no telling how many thousand rounds we shot...Good times.

 

[Railroader]

Springfield offers 0.75 moa guarantee with the waypoint. Christensen offers half moa with their premium offerings. Will we ever see Tikka or Savage offer those kind of guarantees? Most shooters I know couldn't shoot that well on their best day. Lol

That's a very good point, and you gotta wonder how many idiots think buying that guarantee will make them shoot better??

And what happens when Richie Rich who can't hit the ground with his hat tries to return it???

I'm sure the fine print covers it somewhere...

 

[bullgator]

Rifle barrels are better. Chambers are cut better. Bedding is better. Optics are better. Mounting systems are better. Bullets are better. Ammo is better. Range equipment for the average guy is better. Load data is better. Etc. It’s the natural progression of the industry and end user expectations merging in the free market.
Most industries have done the same if return on investment costs allow. Today all cars have A/C, power windows, etc.

 

[Nimrod71]

I hear ya. I once was a great shot. I could hit just about anything within sight, back then. At 10 I had a Win. single shot 22 and I won money cutting the heads off of matches at 30 ft. My Dad didn't care how much ammo I shot when we went to the farm, but I had to bring back something with a 22 hole in it for every cartridge shot. He learned from WW II one shot one kill and he expected me to learn it too. Even today I am not a fan of the AR's because my cousin who spent 6 tours in V.N. said he saw to many men wasting ammo with the spray and pray method.

To the point of accuracy Yes I like putting 5 shots in a quarter and sometimes I can still do it, but it is getting harder. At my age I can't see or hold a rifle as good as I back 40 yrs. ago.

I agree rifles, ammo and scopes are better than in the past. Look up the story of Savage and how they overcame their bankruptcy. Once you learn how to shoot correctly and practice often you will get better. The better you get the more you will get into the sport of shooting. The more you get into shooting the more you will practice and spend on the sport. Most shooters start with a regular hunting rifle and scope with store bought ammo. The next thing you know you are into reloading. Next you buy a target rifle and scope. The last stag is the Custom Built rifle in the latest tack driving caliber.

Then one day as you set at the target bench and say what is next. I have spent $100,000 over the past thirty years so I could hit a pie plate at mile.

What caliber rifle do I need to hit the pie plate at 2 miles?

Fellers, I like post like this, keeps my mind working and remembers days from long ago.

 

[menhadenman]

All good points and the guns I learned on are a lot different than now. Don’t even think I had a scope until my 20s. But I enjoy reloading and range time along with experimenting and tinkering. So find myself chasing half MOA on all my guns these past few years when I started paying way more attention to accuracy. Truth is nearly all my kills are at closer ranges than laser accuracy is needed. And practicing getting closer is a lot cheaper than reloading ;-)

 

[transfixer]

I'm even an accuracy snob when it comes to my AR's that I've assembled, mil-spec triggers aren't good enough for me, I've had good luck picking barrels so far, and I prefer two stage triggers, Geissele is my first choice so far, Larue mbt is a close second, and I even tried a PSA two stage they had on sale one time that is actually a pretty good trigger, I've got a 10.5 .300bo that will shoot 1moa if I do my part, and a 10in 7.62x39 that has gotten close, I haven't loaded for it yet,, thinking I can get it there.
I need to get my early 90's .308 mdl 700 out of the safe and put it through its paces this spring, haven't shot it in a few years, it was my sub moa preferred bolt gun for years, on a good day I've put 5 in 1 1/4 inches at 300yds,, but that's been a few years back ,, don't know that I could do that now .

 

[transfixer]

I don't know a lot about the man credited with this quote , Colonel Townsend Whelen, but I agree with the quote ," only accurate rifles are interesting"

 

[Dub]

I don't know a lot about the man credited with this quote , Colonel Townsend Whelen, but I agree with the quote ," only accurate rifles are interesting"

Powerful quote there.

I'm in agreement with it on handguns, too. I won't keep a handgun that isn't capable of excellent repeatable accuracy.....and now we can get that with reliability, too.

 

[FlipKing]

YeaH. I just wondered if we have plateau'd to an extent with technology and what we can expect with the average shooter unless we change to lasers. Lol I think offering smaller than MOA guarantees is risky without keeping it in higher price ranges, hoping if you'll spend 2k on a rifle, that you can shoot.

You're not wrong that ammo, scopes, and rifles have all improved greatly, all adding to the increase in accuracy expectations.

 

[rmp]

Good thread. Lots of truth in modern technology, repeatability, at a reasonable price.

Golf was referenced above and I've used that to describe my ways. You'll never have the perfect golf game, but people try and enjoy the challenge. You'll never put 10 shots of the caliber size you're shooting into 1 caliber size hole, but I've got to keep trying. Especially with sporter weights and ultra lights of which is my primary focus. Putting 10 out of 10 shots on steel at 950 yards is ok too.

If I buy a rifle and it's not under 1moa, I lose interest and confidence in it.

This is where I thrive. People don't sell tack drivers! love buying used rifles and figuring out why they were sold.. or at least I used to. My spare time has been in short supply for the last couple years. Solving the mysteries and correcting the problems is so much fun. Often it's the simplest of things.

Great post about optics and their warranties.

 

[Railroader]

Technology...

Well, technology is in the process of making me a better handgun shooter than I have ever been.

Which was always a mid 90's score at qualifying. Slightly above average at best...

In the last few years, iron sights on a pistol have become near useless to me which is ok, because I can still "point shoot" and fill up center mass of a torso target out to about 15, maybe 20 yards.

Kind of shooting from memory, if you will... ?

Good enough for home/self defense.

Enter the little tiny red dot sights that have become so popular, and I am hitting golf balls and snuff cans at 15 yards with carry guns.

Clays out to 50, with a G40MOS, and somewhere to get a rest, like a shooting stick or the rail of my summit viper.

No doubt in my mind that pistol optics are the real deal, and I am 100% sold.

Technology...