Has any Christian ever had thoughts that they should be punished for their sins?

[Artfuldodger]

If you did go to this place what is the process that would eventually make you worthy? Why would it be any different about that place than where you are today?

Good point and the fact that the washing made me worthy.

 

[Madman]

The question is not is purgatory different than this realm, the question is, has everyone died without sin. If they haven’t what means is there for them after death?

Sin will not enter into heaven.

 

[Madman]

Good point and the fact that the washing made me worthy.

Did you never sin after you were washed?

 

[Israel]

It just appears that in some cases man can ignore everything scriptural concerning being deceived, turning away from sin,, etc., as if his own doings do not and will not affect is outcome.

It’s like it’s impossible for him to act in the flesh once he’s saved - God has approved his sin from that day forward.

I hear you.

How God works in time and experience with a man is both remarkably intricate and intimate. Probably beyond the telling and discerning for any man we could consider "other" if we admit that, for the most part, we even rarely discern the Lord's working with or in our own selves to some effect till an "after".

But even then all the cogs and clicks we may see and talk about as having turned in ourselves that we do perhaps discern have also some motions we don't yet see.

And we surely are not to ignore the testimony of scripture as to God's dealings with man or men, or even any particular man, not forgetting that Paul (if considered worthy) wrote in some detail of matters and consequences that overtook and fell upon those who are set as examples for us, even given to us, to think and act soberly. 1 Cor 10

God knows even Paul himself is now "held up" as example. As is Peter and many others in what we would consider some "after". We get to see some of the before and after as we perceive them, and Paul surely didn't spare himself as much as he was able.

And Paul was not shy about his struggle(s). Especially in seeking to establish (make firm) what was (seemingly) plain to him but appeared so often "missed". So much so that we might be remiss to not consider some of his comments to them.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

We could go on and on (about law suits and other matters) to such end that were it not for the spirit's forbidding and some sobriety, might lead to something like: "Paul, it doesn't look like you are very good at what you seem trying to do". God forbid. (I even take some liberty to write even that)

But we don't "hang this on Paul", do we? We even can't find accusation, (nor should we) and that I am convinced is another work of the spirit, and just as persuaded that God has allowed us to see his struggles, his efforts, his patient endurance in the face of such opposition to what otherwise might result in (if we were tempted to say) "C'mon people, don't you know? You got THE Apostle Paul teaching you?" ???

Now, of course it was not all rebuke and chastening, God forbid. And surely for Paul, not all exasperation. Hearts were knit, mysteries made known, even "fears" plainly spoken of.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

And all this stuff mentioned, even in any mentioning of it by me, I am convinced you already know.

No, no one needs me in any sense for anything, and I am rather unashamed of being Captain Obvious. Or Captain Tedious. Or even Captain Redundancy. And God knows how much of pride yet remains to taking any captainship...or to even being the chiefest of sinners in any sense.

But can I tell you a funny thing that just happened? (Even as I write this) I didn't plan on it "falling out so." Didn't know it would, even, but it did. I thought I was just going to tell my wife about a dream a brother shared with me. To me it was "cool" and something I thought it might be of benefit for her to hear. She kinda knows this brother, too, at least through me, so she at least knew it could be to the better to lend an ear.

So I turned from the computer here and said:

"So he's telling me how he sees each has a double. In the dream he went into a place and there were two of everyone. OK, he's observing this. But then he comes to a brother (of his own) a natural brother, and is really really troubled. 'How do I know which is the "real" brother?'

So he says "my plan is this, speak to each individually and search him out". So he takes one apart and into a room and begins questioning him "Hey do you remember the time we..." and this fellows says 'Oh, yeah...you did this and then I did that and then this happened' and so on and so on. And this brother (having the dream) seems fairly convinced this is the 'genuine'...as he appears to remember all this stuff rightly.

And then he takes the 'other double' into the room and begins to also ply him with all these questions. And finally this 'other' double says..."OK, but why are we talking so much about me when we could be speaking of Christ?" (And something odd happened just before I spoke to my wife this last line..."OK, but why..." I choked up, almost not knowing if I could go on, like it was a bit hard to get it out without tears, which turned out impossible, actually) As my wife watched me, almost quizzically, as I blubbered.

And in the dream as that double said this to him, this brother said he fell upon him with hugs and many tears. He knew.

Which it turns out is "catchy".

God knows about the hypothetical Bob, and the real King David.

The you, the me and all the examples we might even resort to to try and make sense to our minds of matters that come from the place of "all sensing". The "place" of all knowing.

What if all "the stuff" we think Paul was writing (and may even assume) he was writing "more" for the people of 'his day' is, in God's hand able to (not even so much ) transport us "back" to see ourselves and the Christ...but rather is purposed at least and perhaps so much the more for our hearing...today.

We might find the rebukes "catching", but no less and along with them, if accepted, all the very real encouragements, comforts, exhortations, revelations and establishing.

I don't disagree with you at all that the scriptures and all exhortations against sinning haven't lost their necessary power of rebuke and correction.

But is this just as "catchy"?

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but feces, that I may win Christ,

God knows.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Did you never sin after you were washed?

What more can "I" do on earth or in purgatory that Jesus hasn't already done?

 

[Artfuldodger]

I've always been on a religious rollercoaster between Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine from God's grace and the work of the Cross and “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”
I was raised in a time and place where it was common to see little white signs with red letters that said "Turn or Burn!" So I was brought up more to follow the fear and trembling than free grace.

 

[Israel]

I've always been on a religious rollercoaster between Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine from God's grace and the work of the Cross and “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”

A miner without hope through so many disappointments, so many manifest failings, so many dry holes and empty efforts revealed in his own diggings; what might he find were he to embrace all of the "I fail"?

I am persuaded he could find another whom has been digging into him, mining him, exposing every nook and cranny in such relentless endeavor removing all in that man that he is so thoroughly robbed of any further place to even stand to continue his own digging. He is made empty of all other things but the knowing of "I fail" as the only true thing he can say of himself. And in the saying of finally a one very true thing he discovers a very strange reward for speaking truth. The speaker of truth is in, and speaking to him. And even all the work of bringing to that very utterance is gift...now of gold.

And his confession is changed.

But hey! It's gotta be at least a little bit funny that a guy that scrapes his knuckles when the four way wrench slips of the lug nut and finds this:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

fine as scripture, but doesn't much like it when it is made so plainly known to him. Yep reminding "others" is easy, being reminded...well


who is equal to such a task?

It just has to be someone other than me. I fail.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Let's just say I die with some attached sin....

Unsure what you imply by "attached", but I see another OSAS debate. I'll just show myself to the door as far as regarding that topic.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Consider what Holy Scripture describes, called purgatory by some.

I Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

I'm completely ignorant. Is this the sole scripture the doctrine of purgatory is based on?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

And based on that, Bob has absolutely no reason stop running around with his wife’s sister……..he’s good to go.

Ooof. Gut punch. Good point, but that assumes Bob want's to run around with his wife's sister. If his nature/heart has experienced a true change, that nature (want-to) is dead: not only dead but repulsive to him now. Christians can examine their selves and determine if Christ lives in them. It's as simple a matter of determining if one's want-to has changed. Anyone actively pursuing sin.........

 

[gordon 2]

I'm completely ignorant. Is this the sole scripture the doctrine of purgatory is based on?

Google says: 2 Maccabees 12:41–46, 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11–3:15 and Hebrews 12:29

 

[Artfuldodger]

Ooof. Gut punch. Good point, but that assumes Bob want's to run around with his wife's sister. If his nature/heart has experienced a true change, that nature (want-to) is dead: not only dead but repulsive to him now. Christians can examine their selves and determine if Christ lives in them. It's as simple a matter of determining if one's want-to has changed. Anyone actively pursuing sin.........

What is true repentance of sin? Actually changing or wanting to? Can one really ever do either? Isn't our "want to" a part of our sin nature as well as actually committing it?
I think according to Paul, the "want to"(lust), was as bad as the doing(adultery.) Yet in today's society, most don't see it that way.

 

[Spotlite]

Ooof. Gut punch. Good point, but that assumes Bob want's to run around with his wife's sister. If his nature/heart has experienced a true change, that nature (want-to) is dead: not only dead but repulsive to him now. Christians can examine their selves and determine if Christ lives in them. It's as simple a matter of determining if one's want-to has changed. Anyone actively pursuing sin.........

It could very well mean that. But, what Christian is above deception? Better yet, what Christians are exempt from the warnings of the deception and lusts of the flesh? Eve certainly wasn’t.

What does it look like when a man that claims he can’t be deceived?

I know a lot deals with false prophets but the subject of deception is the relevant note. Deception starts in your weak areas, not your strong points.

“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.”

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”

 

[SemperFiDawg]

What is true repentance of sin? Actually changing or wanting to?

3 frogs are sitting on a log. 2 make a decision to jump in the pond. How many are left sitting on the log? Answer: 3. Making a decision requires no action on their part. Their station has not changed one iota.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

It could very well mean that. But, what Christian is above deception?

I don't know one who is above self-deception. James 1:22 speaks to that. I've also never met a man who was not capable of discerning right from wrong, and I'm pretty certain the One who knows the truth isn't gonna play theoretical "What ifs". Just my two cents.

 

[Spotlite]

I don't know one who is above self-deception. James 1:22 speaks to that. I've also never met a man who was not capable of discerning right from wrong, and I'm pretty certain the One who knows the truth isn't gonna play theoretical "What ifs". Just my two cents.

Oh definitely. Just because he falls doesn’t mean he didn’t know better. I don’t see what ifs, either. You don’t accidentally land there……

My Daddy always said if you play around with a wood stove you’re going to get smut on you.

I’m only speaking of those that believe they’re above deception as a whole and falling - as in “I’m not subject to it, can’t happen to me”

 

[Madman]

What more can "I" do on earth or in purgatory that Jesus hasn't already done?

Repent.

 

[Madman]

I'm completely ignorant. Is this the sole scripture the doctrine of purgatory is based on?

Not totally, it is pretty evident.

Would we need more than one verse?

 

[gordon 2]

Oh yes you accidentally land there...

In the heat of passion, or the magnet of peer pressure, or a fast talking snake, a friend trying to help you with what sounded good at the time.

Get this: A very lonely guy gets drunk and forgets, really forgets, he's married.

Yep you accidentally land there. Some of us don't have a fast comeback to avoid " here hold my beer". And it not really about the beer, it's about the sure of himself dummy getting himself at the wrong place at the right time.


Some people have to spend a few yrs in sing sing to realize they have to get a whole new set of friends and a whole new life because their old friends were very accident prone and it takes a long time sometimes to learn that it can be different.

 

[Spotlite]

Oh yes you accidentally land there...

In the heat of passion, or the magnet of peer pressure, or a fast talking snake, a friend trying to help you with what sounded good at the time.

Get this: A very lonely guy gets drunk and forgets, really forgets, he's married.

Yep you accidentally land there. Some of us don't have a fast comeback to avoid " here hold my beer". And it not really about the beer, it's about the sure of himself dummy getting himself at the wrong place at the right time.


Some people have to spend a few yrs in sing sing to realize they have to get a whole new set of friends and a whole new life because their old friends were very accident prone and it takes a long time sometimes to learn that it can be different.

Agreed. What I meant by not accidentally landing there is the playing innocent part…….you “know” something is a little off color to begin with. Maybe I said it wrong but you said it best.