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Heaven and Free Will
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StriperAddict
Senior Member
LOL!, but... Go for it. I could bet that with an "ok, here I am 'Lord'" prayer and just 5 min/day with the scriptures... in less than a year's time you'd have 'treasure' beyond your wildest dreams, and I and others'd be gleaning much from your words
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
LOL!, but... Go for it. I could bet that with an "ok, here I am 'Lord'" prayer and just 5 min/day with the scriptures... in less than a year's time you'd have 'treasure' beyond your wildest dreams, and I and others'd be gleaning much from your words
striper, I appreciate you 'rootin for me but why would 5mins a day for about a year do it when hours weekly for 20 years did not?
Maybe if you understood that it is not mans words but the inspired word of God you might get it.
Im pulling for you too. What did you not get in 20 years that caused you to walk away from God?
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Been there, done that.
The more I read, the more I experienced, the more it became clear to me that God, any God, had nothing to do with the Bible.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
What do you mean by "what did I not get"??
For 20 years I thought I "got" it. I had a few bad experiences with the inner workings of churches, parishioners and clergy. I started to read the Bible intensely. The more I read I found myself questioning the validity of it. The more I found it fallible. The more I saw man's influence and motives.
The hardest part was not feeling guilty for doubting and asking the first question. The more questions I asked, the more I sat down with clergy, the worse I felt. I do not have a problem with God. I have a problem with organized religion portraying God to be exactly as that particular religion needs him to be to suit their needs.
gemcgrew
Senior Member
Makes perfect sense to me. Did you know that for about the first two hundred years after Christ, the church never had special buildings of their own? And when at last they did, exhortation was reduced into the issuing of commands. Organized religion and local churches, gotta love it.
centerpin fan
Senior Member
What would you replace them with?
“Maybe if you understood that it is not mans words but the inspired word of God you might get it. “
Sorry to interrupt again, but this is one of my favorites – this is the one that made Oprah a hugely wealthy woman, and is still used as the last fallback position of everyone under the sun who cannot explain, prove, or articulate – I speak here of the ‘You just don’t GET IT,’ argument.
The implied and explicit argument here is that unless I actually BECOME the person making the contention, it will forever be impossible for me to know what is in THEIR mind. Teenagers use this one as a weapon – “YOU don’t know ME!” (Anyone heard that one before?) Sorry. Didn’t work then, won’t work now.
The fundamental problem with this argument is that it relies on an assumption of ignorance on the part of the person to whom it is delivered – and in this Forum that assumption is far from the case. You ask us to stoop down, and forget that we understand far, far more than the accuser.
Because of that understanding, and that education, we ask quite simply – IF you propose that the ‘inspired words of God,’ were somehow put into the writing of only a terribly few people in a terribly remote part of the world at a time when hardly anyone at all was acquainted with this new-fangled invention of ‘writing,’ let alone ‘reading’ – And IF the God who gave this dictation to his very few human stenographers actually spoke those words, aloud, to those few recording secretaries – THEN HOW COME NONE OF THEM AGREE?
You see, there is a huge chasm of difference between what is often held to be “THE WORD OF GOD,” and the immediate fallback position that, “Well, Um, God INSPIRED the Word, but didn’t actually say it, so MERE MEN may have gotten it wrong.”
Ya think? Which is it? GOD’S WORD, or the ‘inspired’ words of men? Think about that one for as moment.
Did GOD write the stuff? Or did ‘inspired’ men (without getting into just what their particular ‘Inspirations’ might have been) write it, and spread it well before most folks even learned to read?
Sorry to interrupt again, but this is one of my favorites – this is the one that made Oprah a hugely wealthy woman, and is still used as the last fallback position of everyone under the sun who cannot explain, prove, or articulate – I speak here of the ‘You just don’t GET IT,’ argument.
The implied and explicit argument here is that unless I actually BECOME the person making the contention, it will forever be impossible for me to know what is in THEIR mind. Teenagers use this one as a weapon – “YOU don’t know ME!” (Anyone heard that one before?) Sorry. Didn’t work then, won’t work now.
The fundamental problem with this argument is that it relies on an assumption of ignorance on the part of the person to whom it is delivered – and in this Forum that assumption is far from the case. You ask us to stoop down, and forget that we understand far, far more than the accuser.
Because of that understanding, and that education, we ask quite simply – IF you propose that the ‘inspired words of God,’ were somehow put into the writing of only a terribly few people in a terribly remote part of the world at a time when hardly anyone at all was acquainted with this new-fangled invention of ‘writing,’ let alone ‘reading’ – And IF the God who gave this dictation to his very few human stenographers actually spoke those words, aloud, to those few recording secretaries – THEN HOW COME NONE OF THEM AGREE?
You see, there is a huge chasm of difference between what is often held to be “THE WORD OF GOD,” and the immediate fallback position that, “Well, Um, God INSPIRED the Word, but didn’t actually say it, so MERE MEN may have gotten it wrong.”
Ya think? Which is it? GOD’S WORD, or the ‘inspired’ words of men? Think about that one for as moment.
Did GOD write the stuff? Or did ‘inspired’ men (without getting into just what their particular ‘Inspirations’ might have been) write it, and spread it well before most folks even learned to read?
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
bullet&head give 2 thumbs up
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
It was/is no different then compared to what modern missionaries do now. They teach people to believe. They condition people to believe. NONE of the converted have experienced Jesus before they were believers and somehow once converted they can relate everything to him. Uneducated and illiterate due to seclusion from the modern world, social status in ancient times or due to being and infant has everyone on the same playing field when it comes to being "taught" how to believe.
I cannot ever remember NOT hearing about God and Jesus when I was young and unable to read or write. I did not have to read the Bible in order to get my first taste of either of them. The Bible was there long after I had already been made a believer and it was the logical next step once I could read. Sunday school was a great start to reading the Bible and having the scripture "explained". Odd observance here... We never learned anything but the "good" verses. In fact no where in any sort of organized religion scenario did we spend any time on ALL the verses in the Bible. It was only as I grew into a young adult that I noticed all the verses and then felt guilty for going against my teachings and conditioning.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Individuals that can think for themselves with no obligation to fork over money to be closer to a God.
gemcgrew
Senior Member
I think there are more drawbacks than advantages with local church buildings. Why not consider church homes?
"Likewise greet the church that is in their house." (Rom 16:5)
"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house." (1 Cor 16:19)
"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house." (Col. 4:15)
"And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:" (Phil. verse 2)
Is there a single instance in the New Testament where the early Christians ever built what we call a house of worship?
gemcgrew
Senior Member
Very true for the most part. There are missionaries that proclaim the Gospel. They do not coax professions of faith. They are not in the soul winning business. That is the work of the Holy Spirit.
And it was for me as well.
centerpin fan
Senior Member
Fine by me.
They didn't have to. They took advantage of the houses of worship that were already built:
"Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts." -- Acts 2:46
"The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade." -- Acts 5:12
centerpin fan
Senior Member
gemcgrew
Senior Member
I agree. When I read Acts 2:46 and then read Acts 5:42, it appears to have been very temporary. Before the Jews came to understand the issue, Jewish believers were welcome in the temple and were asked to speak. When the temple was denied them, only the house remained.
“I cannot ever remember NOT hearing about God and Jesus when I was young and unable to read or write.”
Reason Number Three why Sex is better than Religion: It is illegal to force sex on children.
Ever dwell on the thought, for even a moment, of WHY the hyper-religious are so keen on having their message presented, undiluted, to school-children?
In most contexts, forcing odd adult fantasies onto children – and this includes everything from parents who believe in faith-healing, to parental dreams of being supported by a future sports All-Star, to folks who force children into ‘Beauty Pageants’ at age six, and back again across all spectrums – is considered, now, to be worse than unfair on the face of it, and has been criminalized as abusive parenting in nearly every civilized nation.
Times change. Huh? Except with a few self-elected and very vocal minorities.
Funny thing is, we don’t even need to argue anymore. The early-indoctrination-based Believers in whatever it is they ‘believe’ have accidentally sabotaged THEMSELVES by slicing their ‘beliefs’ into ever smaller segments, pitting righteous sect against equally righteous sect, and they are actually serving their own means to what will ultimately be the ‘End.’ All by themselves.
For them -- Divided they Fall.
For humanity, progress, rationality, intellect, science, and practicality – Good riddance.
Reason Number Three why Sex is better than Religion: It is illegal to force sex on children.
Ever dwell on the thought, for even a moment, of WHY the hyper-religious are so keen on having their message presented, undiluted, to school-children?
In most contexts, forcing odd adult fantasies onto children – and this includes everything from parents who believe in faith-healing, to parental dreams of being supported by a future sports All-Star, to folks who force children into ‘Beauty Pageants’ at age six, and back again across all spectrums – is considered, now, to be worse than unfair on the face of it, and has been criminalized as abusive parenting in nearly every civilized nation.
Times change. Huh? Except with a few self-elected and very vocal minorities.
Funny thing is, we don’t even need to argue anymore. The early-indoctrination-based Believers in whatever it is they ‘believe’ have accidentally sabotaged THEMSELVES by slicing their ‘beliefs’ into ever smaller segments, pitting righteous sect against equally righteous sect, and they are actually serving their own means to what will ultimately be the ‘End.’ All by themselves.
For them -- Divided they Fall.
For humanity, progress, rationality, intellect, science, and practicality – Good riddance.
What do you mean NONE of them agree? Why would God have to actually say His words for "mere men" to get it right. Satan didnt say a spoken word to you, but you still got it wrong just like he wanted you to. The men that wrote the bible wrote exactly what God wanted them to write. I guess you would think that it is a fairy tale written over that long period of time with prophecy that just happened to come true hundreds of years after being told.
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