Heaven and Free Will

[JB0704]

I don't mean to be singling JB out here. This is just one of many citations of free will as being the reason God doesn't intervene on behalf of the suffering.

It's all good.

How does this get reconciled with the following?

1. Two thousand years of jews living and dying with the interference of the exercise of their free will by way of being blinded by God from seeing Christ as the messiah. Mtnwoman thinks they will all (including the dead) get an opportunity to see the error of their ways.

A couple of things, first, if they were blinded by God, then they have no free will to choose. Second, there are many, many different thoughts as to what the actual treatment of folks is or will be.

2. A heaven predominantly populated with the souls of the unborn who never had an opportunity to exercise free will..

I see no conflict here. The opposite thought would be these souls may not be elected, and are burning in he11 without ever having a chance to be elected.

3. A heaven populated by people who have been altered in some way as to be made so that they won't want to sin or alternatively want to sin but are unable to. Either way, no free will in this regard.

But, aside from the unborn souls mentioned previously, all parties would be there by choice, the rest wouldn't know any different. Let's face it, if you don't believe in God, any idea of an afterlife will seem ridiculous. I get that.

 

[Artfuldodger]

If God already knows who is going to Heaven & He11, why didn't he just create the people going to Heaven?
This question was asked earlier. It got me thinking but I don't have an answer.

 

[gemcgrew]

If God already knows who is going to Heaven & He11, why didn't he just create the people going to Heaven?
This question was asked earlier. It got me thinking but I don't have an answer.

Romans 9:19-24 addresses your complaint.

 

[ambush80]

If God already knows who is going to Heaven & He11, why didn't he just create the people going to Heaven?
This question was asked earlier. It got me thinking but I don't have an answer.

From my observations you won't find an answer that makes sense and if you ask a fellow believer about it they will probably tell you to "lay such questions at the foot of the cross" or something to that effect. That "thinking" business will get you all confused.

 

[gemcgrew]

From my observations you won't find an answer that makes sense and if you ask a fellow believer about it they will probably tell you to "lay such questions at the foot of the cross" or something to that effect. That "thinking" business will get you all confused.

It appears that a lot of folks want to believe in God, just not the God of the Bible. The one that kills people and rules his creation as he pleases.

 

[ambush80]

It appears that a lot of folks want to believe in God, just not the God of the Bible. The one that kills people and rules his creation as he pleases.

I think you're absolutely right.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 9:19-24 addresses your complaint.

It isn't a complaint.

 

[gemcgrew]

It isn't a complaint.

I should have used "question" instead of "complaint".

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 9:19-24 addresses your complaint.

Hath not the potter power over the clay?
As a believer of free will those verses are troubling.
Who are we to question God?
Does that put an end to Bible study?

 

[gemcgrew]

From my observations you won't find an answer that makes sense and if you ask a fellow believer about it they will probably tell you to "lay such questions at the foot of the cross" or something to that effect. That "thinking" business will get you all confused.

Reminded me of my youth. My earliest memories are those of singing "Jesus loves me this I know". I was told that "God loves everybody". This all changed about the time I reached an "age of accountability" (WHAT?). Now, all of a sudden, I find out that there is much more to this than I was previously lead to believe.

Here are just some of the questions I raised at that time:

What is the age of accountability?
Why does Jesus expect more from me now?
Why did you even have me if you knew He11 was a possible end?
If I say that prayer and ask forgiveness, everything will be ok?
Are you sure everything was ok before?
What if I had died on my birthday?
If God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, why does he need my 10%? I'm trying to save for a motorcycle.

And believe me, I had a bunch of questions nobody could answer confidently.

What a bunch of religious nonsense.

 

[gemcgrew]

Does that put an end to Bible study?

It didn't for me.

 

[atlashunter]

A couple of things, first, if they were blinded by God, then they have no free will to choose. Second, there are many, many different thoughts as to what the actual treatment of folks is or will be.

There are so many problems with this. Here are just a few.

1. If free will is so important to God that he refuses to intervene on behalf of a starving child in Sudan why would he then interfere with the free will of a select group of people?

2. Does he blind all jews? How jewish do you have to be to qualify? What if your half jewish?

3. How do some jews convert to christianity if they are blinded?

4. If you're going to interfere with free will of some people why do it in such a way that separates them from you if you want them to be close to you? Aren't the jews supposed to be God's chosen people? Or is it just part of a manipulative plot to turn them back toward him at some point in the future?

I see no conflict here. The opposite thought would be these souls may not be elected, and are burning in he11 without ever having a chance to be elected.

You don't see a conflict between the idea of a god who presides over a heaven full of people that had absolutely nothing to do with being there and the same god caring so much about the free will of others that he can't be bothered to lift a finger for a child that is being molested or starving to death?

But, aside from the unborn souls mentioned previously, all parties would be there by choice, the rest wouldn't know any different. Let's face it, if you don't believe in God, any idea of an afterlife will seem ridiculous. I get that.

The point is. If he is going to alter those who chose to be there so that they can't change their mind why not cut to the chase and just start creation with those people in an already altered state? He doesn't need to wait and see what choices they would make because he already knows, right? No need then for all the death and evil and suffering. Also no need for a human sacrifice to make right what you knew from the outset would go wrong. What would the good and moral choice be faced with those two options?

 

[mtnwoman]

There are so many problems with this. Here are just a few.

1. If free will is so important to God that he refuses to intervene on behalf of a starving child in Sudan why would he then interfere with the free will of a select group of people? God does intervene in behalf of a starving child in Sudan, Hecalls us to feed them and clothe them. Some of us do, some of us don't. I can't go but I can support missionaries who do go.

2. Does he blind all jews? How jewish do you have to be to qualify? What if your half jewish?The general population of Jews at that time were blinded, and their children have fallen in step. Just like God temporarily blinded Saul who was a Christian killer and turned Him into Paul, one of the Bible's greatest writers. The gospel is for anyone, even half jews, full jews, etc. They can choose the gospel or they can remain blinded with the rest of the 'congregation'. You don't have to be blinded from the gospel only if you're jewish, many, many people are blind.

3. How do some jews convert to christianity if they are blinded?Like anyone else who was blind before they accepted Christ. Everyone is blind before they accept Christ.

4. If you're going to interfere with free will of some people why do it in such a way that separates them from you if you want them to be close to you? Aren't the jews supposed to be God's chosen people? Or is it just part of a manipulative plot to turn them back toward him at some point in the future?Well that could be, I use manipulation as a way to get my grandchildren to mind me. It's either manipulation or a switch....they don't get to go to the movies, they don't get pizza, they don't get pepsi, which is their punishment.....but I don't punish them forever, just for a time.




You don't see a conflict between the idea of a god who presides over a heaven full of people that had absolutely nothing to do with being there and the same god caring so much about the free will of others that he can't be bothered to lift a finger for a child that is being molested or starving to death?Perhaps if some of the old laws in OT were in force today, we might not have to worry about child molesters....but oh no....they aren't scared of getting 'it' cut off nor spending very much time in jail. And as far as a starving child, that is up to you and me. Do you feed them? God provides for me to provide for them.




The point is. If he is going to alter those who chose to be there so that they can't change their mind why not cut to the chase and just start creation with those people in an already altered state? He doesn't need to wait and see what choices they would make because he already knows, right? No need then for all the death and evil and suffering. Also no need for a human sacrifice to make right what you knew from the outset would go wrong. What would the good and moral choice be faced with those two options?

We all have those questions and those things will stick in my craw, but I do have to admit that I get way more out of Christianity than just worrying about the questions.....like trying to figure out how to get food and clothes from here to there...that's what we should really be worrying about is helping others....God or no God.

I know my goal and probably most other Christians goal, is to find the calling of God on their lives. Like teaching, preaching,feeding the hungry, going to visit and take care of the sick and elderly, my goal is not to figure out how God is going to 'change up' the Jews at the precise time. That's not what He calls us to do, is to figure Him out. We are here to help and give service to each other and to love each other.

I've got a gazillion questions I could write out that need answers, while children are starving across the pond or even down the street. I'll do what God wants me to do, and He's got the rest.

 

[atlashunter]

God does intervene in behalf of a starving child in Sudan, Hecalls us to feed them and clothe them. Some of us do, some of us don't. I can't go but I can support missionaries who do go.

Right and Allah is intervening when Hamas does charitable work in the Gaza strip.

I think Mark Twain nailed it.

We hear much about His mercy and kindness and goodness - in words - the words of His Book and of His pulpit - and the meek multitude is content with this evidence, such as it is, seeking no further; but whoso searcheth after a concreted sample of it will in time acquire fatigue. There being no instances of it. For what are gilded as mercies are not in any recorded case more than mere common justices, and due - due without thanks or compliment. To rescue without personal risk a cripple from a burning house is not a mercy, it is a mere commonplace duty; anybody would do it that could. And not by proxy, either - delegating the work but confiscating the credit for it. If men neglected “God’s poor” and “God’s stricken and helpless ones” as He does, what would become of them? The answer is to be found in those dark lands where man follows His example and turns his indifferent back upon them: they get no help at all; they cry, and plead and pray in vain, they linger and suffer, and miserably die. If you will look at the matter rationally and without prejudice, the proper place to hunt for the facts of His mercy, is not where man does the mercies and He collects the praise, but in those regions where He has the field to Himself.

Perhaps if some of the old laws in OT were in force today, we might not have to worry about child molesters....but oh no....they aren't scared of getting 'it' cut off nor spending very much time in jail. And as far as a starving child, that is up to you and me. Do you feed them? God provides for me to provide for them.

You haven't answered the question. You believe in an all powerful God that stands by watching children be molested and chooses to do nothing to stop it. That's an evil being.

We all have those questions and those things will stick in my craw, but I do have to admit that I get way more out of Christianity than just worrying about the questions.....like trying to figure out how to get food and clothes from here to there...that's what we should really be worrying about is helping others....God or no God.

What would the good and moral choice be faced with those two options?

 

[mtnwoman]

You haven't answered the question. You believe in an all powerful God that stands by watching children be molested and chooses to do nothing to stop it. That's an evil being.

He also stands by and watches abortions.....have you ever watched one? I bet that feels really good with all your limbs being pulled apart. Who's fault is it abortions are legal? How bought partial birth abortions, when the baby is full term and as soon as it pokes it's little head out, before it can take a breath, in go the sutures. How in the heck can that be ok with people who voted for abortions to be legal? Most people don't even know what partial birth abortion is.

He stands by and watches drunk drivers kill innocent children die in car crashes......who voted in alchohol?

He watches people die of cancer everyday from smoking cigartettes that started smoking as kids.......who votes for cigs to be legal?

He also watches people watch xxxxxxxxxxxx rated movies that are not illegal, and the pervs can't find ANY woman to do those things for free, so he finds a child he can force to? Please let's give them some ideas, why won't we?

Guns are legal and I'm for that, but kids get guns and kill other kids in school, is that God's fault, or could a parent of two step up to the plate? Who voted for the right to bear arms.

We want to blame a God who has told us not to do all these things and we vote them in as legal and then wonder what the heck happened.

Dahmer had to be blasted out of his goard to kill and mutilate people....he could buy alcohol right on the corner....who made that legal?

Some people think it's ok for people to do anything they please and some take it too far, there are no boundaries for many many people.

And as far as child molesters go, they were born that way....that should justify it sometime in the future when the age of consent drops when same sex marriage sets in. So then if a molester is careful and takes a 12 yo and 12 is the age of consent, then he's scot free.....alright then.

It's nothing we do is it? It's all God's fault.

So who do you blame it all on atlas since you don't believe in God, you, your family, your friends? who? people who vote? Who?

 

[mtnwoman]

What would the good and moral choice be faced with those two options?

And what difference would that make to ya? You don't believe in God, have you stopped child molestation?

So what do you think my moral choice should be, and why? And what would it change in the world, and what would it do for the world? How would that help anyone? How would that benefit me and how would that benefit you and for how long?

Perhaps instead of talking morals to me you should run on down to the local prison and have a chat about morals with a child molester before the rest of the men get to him....whatcha think? Course I'm easier to

 

[atlashunter]

He also stands by and watches abortions.....have you ever watched one? I bet that feels really good with all your limbs being pulled apart. Who's fault is it abortions are legal? How bought partial birth abortions, when the baby is full term and as soon as it pokes it's little head out, before it can take a breath, in go the sutures. How in the heck can that be ok with people who voted for abortions to be legal? Most people don't even know what partial birth abortion is.

He stands by and watches drunk drivers kill innocent children die in car crashes......who voted in alchohol?

He watches people die of cancer everyday from smoking cigartettes that started smoking as kids.......who votes for cigs to be legal?

He also watches people watch xxxxxxxxxxxx rated movies that are not illegal, and the pervs can't find ANY woman to do those things for free, so he finds a child he can force to? Please let's give them some ideas, why won't we?

Guns are legal and I'm for that, but kids get guns and kill other kids in school, is that God's fault, or could a parent of two step up to the plate? Who voted for the right to bear arms.

We want to blame a God who has told us not to do all these things and we vote them in as legal and then wonder what the heck happened.

Dahmer had to be blasted out of his goard to kill and mutilate people....he could buy alcohol right on the corner....who made that legal?

Some people think it's ok for people to do anything they please and some take it too far, there are no boundaries for many many people.

And as far as child molesters go, they were born that way....that should justify it sometime in the future when the age of consent drops when same sex marriage sets in. So then if a molester is careful and takes a 12 yo and 12 is the age of consent, then he's scot free.....alright then.

It's nothing we do is it? It's all God's fault.

So who do you blame it all on atlas since you don't believe in God, you, your family, your friends? who? people who vote? Who?

The issue isn't who commits the crime. Yes the perpetrator is responsible for their actions. You completely miss the point, intentionally I'm starting to think.

Suppose a child was being molested by their teacher and the principal walked in on it. Suppose they had the power to stop this from happening at absolutely no risk to themselves. Suppose they knew this was going to happen before it did and could have intervened so as to protect the child but opted not to. Suppose further that upon walking in and seeing what the child is going through they stand there and watch while the entire event takes place. They do nothing even though they could. Are you really going to tell me that no judgments about the morality of this individual can be made because it was the teacher and not them that did the act? Seriously?

 

[atlashunter]

And what difference would that make to ya? You don't believe in God, have you stopped child molestation?

So what do you think my moral choice should be, and why? And what would it change in the world, and what would it do for the world? How would that help anyone? How would that benefit me and how would that benefit you and for how long?

What difference would it make for God to skip all the evil in the world and get straight to the end result he wants? How would that help anyone?

Perhaps instead of talking morals to me you should run on down to the local prison and have a chat about morals with a child molester before the rest of the men get to him....whatcha think? Course I'm easier to

I think you're right on all counts. It's pretty much a lost cause positing moral questions with someone that can't figure out what good it would do to anyone to eliminate evil from the world.

 

[mtnwoman]

What difference would it make for God to skip all the evil in the world and get straight to the end result he wants? How would that help anyone?Where did I say skip all that?




I think you're right on all counts. It's pretty much a lost cause positing moral questions with someone that can't figure out what good it would do to anyone to eliminate evil from the world.That wasn't your question? Now was it? Honestly in your wildest dreams you think that I wouldn't rid the world of evil if I could....and especially if I didn't believe in God, it would only be up to me and you, eh?

WOW! That's it?

I wrote all that just for you to

That really hurts my feelings but that's ok, I know I shouldn't be in here anyways. I thought we were going along pretty well....I don't know what made me think that you wouldn't make fun of everything I said and still not answer my question. oh well....I'm just surprised....I shouldn't be.....

Me not believing in God is not gonna get rid of all the evil in the world....how's it workin' for you?

 

[mtnwoman]

The issue isn't who commits the crime. Yes the perpetrator is responsible for their actions. You completely miss the point, intentionally I'm starting to think. Well obviously I do miss your point, but I don't appreciate you saying intentionally. Obviously by answering your questions and you come back and make fun of my answers do you really think i'd do it on purpose.

Suppose a child was being molested by their teacher and the principal walked in on it. Suppose they had the power to stop this from happening at absolutely no risk to themselves. Suppose they knew this was going to happen before it did and could have intervened so as to protect the child but opted not to. Suppose further that upon walking in and seeing what the child is going through they stand there and watch while the entire event takes place. They do nothing even though they could. Are you really going to tell me that no judgments about the morality of this individual can be made because it was the teacher and not them that did the act? Seriously?

Where in the world did you get I'd say that. You're the one blaming it on God instead of the teacher. Didn't a man just do that to a coach in Pa or somewhere like that? God sent someone to help the boys and the man disobeyed and did nothing....God'
s fault again.....was porn involved....you betcha.

You want God to intervene on that but not on abortions? or unwanted pregnancies? or how about drinking and driving and killing innocent children? Wasn't it us that made alcohol available or abortions that kill children everyday.

You want God to stop child molesters while you vote FOR abortions or FOR alcohol etc etc. I'm not saying you personally. But what do you expect?

You want God to intevene on things that you don't like but the things that you do like you want Him and His people to stay out of it.

If it was left up to me, every single child molester would be singing soprano, I bet that would stop a few, but the same people that are ok with abortions are against the death penalty. Perhaps some of God's harsh laws might fit in here....but oh heaven forbid that.

You figure it out.

I gave you my answer to the best of my ability.

You don't believe in God, so once again I ask you who's fault do you think it is for child molestation?