Heaven and Free Will

[mtnwoman]

Free will is irrelevant if you really believe God is omnipotent and omniscient.

I don't see how you get that. God is all powerful enough to give us free will if He wants to, and just because He knows everything that we will chose doesn't mean He doesn't let us make the choice. He knows whether I will chose to sin or not, even though it isn't in His will for me to sin....He knows that I will, when I will, and what the sin will be....that's all knowing. I'm not a robot.

If I choose to walk the breast cancer walk, God knows before hand if I will finish the race or whether I will be injured, He still let's me race the race because I've chosen to race the race. If He wants to intervene He can do that, too. He can let me race or He can stop me. God could stop me from sinning if He wanted to, obviously He doesn't at least not all the time, because I still sin. Otherwise God would be responsible for my sin, if I didn't have free will. Does God know I will sin before I do? Yes He is all knowing, He even knows how many hairs I have on my head, what kind of useless info is that?

 

[gemcgrew]

If He wants to intervene He can do that, too. He can let me race or He can stop me.

Does he ever stop you?

 

[BrettJ]

No you can't sin in heaven. Sin will not be present in heaven therefore a person can't sin. A person won't want to sin because it does not exists. As far as a mother feeling bad about her lost son, she will be in the glory of GOD. That is so far beyond our small minds that we cannot understand it but it will far surpass any memory or thought of a loved one suffering for eternity. That is just how Holy our God is.

 

[atlashunter]

No you can't sin in heaven. Sin will not be present in heaven therefore a person can't sin. A person won't want to sin because it does not exists. As far as a mother feeling bad about her lost son, she will be in the glory of GOD. That is so far beyond our small minds that we cannot understand it but it will far surpass any memory or thought of a loved one suffering for eternity. That is just how Holy our God is.

I was always taught that sin is disobedience to God. How is it possible to have free will in heaven if it is impossible to disobey God? And if such a place could be created there and that is God's ideal situation, why didn't he create it here from the start?

 

[atlashunter]

I don't see how you get that. God is all powerful enough to give us free will if He wants to, and just because He knows everything that we will chose doesn't mean He doesn't let us make the choice. He knows whether I will chose to sin or not, even though it isn't in His will for me to sin....He knows that I will, when I will, and what the sin will be....that's all knowing. I'm not a robot.

If I choose to walk the breast cancer walk, God knows before hand if I will finish the race or whether I will be injured, He still let's me race the race because I've chosen to race the race. If He wants to intervene He can do that, too. He can let me race or He can stop me. God could stop me from sinning if He wanted to, obviously He doesn't at least not all the time, because I still sin. Otherwise God would be responsible for my sin, if I didn't have free will. Does God know I will sin before I do? Yes He is all knowing, He even knows how many hairs I have on my head, what kind of useless info is that?

There can be no surprises if you are all knowing. There can be no accidents if you are all powerful. And if you're the all knowing all powerful creator of all then everything must necessarily be exactly as you chose it to be since you knew what the results would be and having the power to choose an alternate outcome, didn't.

 

[mtnwoman]

Does he ever stop you?

How would I know?


I've had plenty of near misses in my life....I assume they came from God and thank Him anyway. Perhaps it was a whim of mother nature, but I still thank Him.

 

[gemcgrew]

Perhaps it was a whim of mother nature, but I still thank Him.

 

[mtnwoman]

There can be no surprises if you are all knowing. There can be no accidents if you are all powerful. And if you're the all knowing all powerful creator of all then everything must necessarily be exactly as you chose it to be since you knew what the results would be and having the power to choose an alternate outcome, didn't.

I didn't say there were any accidents or surprises when it comes to God. If I'm gonna die in a car wreck, even though it's an accident to me and my family...God knew that before I was born that that was gonna happen, He let it happen, could He have changed it...yes He could've, if He wanted to, and I wouldn't have died. Did He know I was gonna chose to be saved? yes He did? Could He make me be saved, yes He could, if He wanted to....why would He if knew foreknew I was gonna say yes?

If you know your 21 yr old son is going to fry on the beach without sunscreen and he chooses not to wear sunscreen, is it your fault he got fried? because you foreknew he would fry and he did fry????

 

[mtnwoman]

Well quit asking questions like does God stop me.....of course He can if He wants to....He can do anything He wants to.

 

[mtnwoman]

No you can't sin in heaven. Sin will not be present in heaven therefore a person can't sin. A person won't want to sin because it does not exists. As far as a mother feeling bad about her lost son, she will be in the glory of GOD. That is so far beyond our small minds that we cannot understand it but it will far surpass any memory or thought of a loved one suffering for eternity. That is just how Holy our God is.

Amen!

 

[atlashunter]

If you know your 21 yr old son is going to fry on the beach without sunscreen and he chooses not to wear sunscreen, is it your fault he got fried? because you foreknew he would fry and he did fry????

If you created the sun and the beach and his skin which is burned by the UV rays that you created and every detail about your son including all the miniscule factors that you knew would ultimately lead to his decision and you did all of this with the foreknowledge of the outcome and the power to choose a different outcome but didn't... yes it's your fault.

I'm sorry but if you're going to be the all knowing all powerful creator of everything then you must ultimately be in control of all things. It's unavoidable and goes with the territory.

 

[mtnwoman]

If you created the sun and the beach and his skin which is burned by the UV rays that you created and every detail about your son including all the miniscule factors that you knew would ultimately lead to his decision and you did all of this with the foreknowledge of the outcome and the power to choose a different outcome but didn't... yes it's your fault.

I'm sorry but if you're going to be the all knowing all powerful creator of everything then you must ultimately be in control of all things. It's unavoidable and goes with the territory.

So are you telling me that you didn't know your 21 year old son would burn up alive on his first trip away from dad to the beach and you didn't feel the urge to tell him to wear sunscreen, because you didn't know he'd fry out there? Ah come on.....you knew before he went, didn't you? So letting him go without telling him to put on sunscreen WOULD be your fault popster....that's just mean.

 

[atlashunter]

Suppose you were to leave a loaded gun out on a table and you chose to do so with 100% certainty that he would shoot himself. May it be said this was an event outside of your control? If not, then how could it be said that it was not according to your will? And if control was in your hands and it was according to your will (as evidenced by the choice you made)then how can you deny responsibility?

 

[mtnwoman]

Suppose you were to leave a loaded gun out on a table and you chose to do so with 100% certainty that he would shoot himself. May it be said this was an event outside of your control? If not, then how could it be said that it was not according to your will? And if control was in your hands and it was according to your will (as evidenced by the choice you made)then how can you deny responsibility?

Really??? He's 21? If he wanted to shoot himself, is it gonna take you to leave a gun around for him to shoot himself or is he able to find a gun on his own? wouldn't ya think, no matter what you do, he's gonna work on his own free will, if'n he wants to kill himself? regardless of who you are?

Well I wouldn't leave a loaded gun out on a table, but I would let my granddaughter go to the beach. I know what would happen in either case....or at least what could happen. I know for sure she'd fry in the sun, I don't know for sure she wouldn't play with the gun, but I know what would happen if she did, so I'd have to be in control of that circumstance and not leave that to her free will. Course if she was 21, I could probably count on her to mind me and not touch the gun and hopefully use sunscreen too, if I told her to.

We could go round and round with this, my point being that even though sometimes we know what will happen under certain circumstances, doesn't mean others will do exactly as we tell them to do to avoid bad results from doing those things. If I didn't have free I'm sure I wouldn't be doing the stupid things I do or at least I could blame everything I do on God.

 

[gemcgrew]

I'm sorry but if you're going to be the all knowing all powerful creator of everything then you must ultimately be in control of all things. It's unavoidable and goes with the territory.

A god that is not in control of everything is no God at all. And God doesn't make his choices by peeking into the future to see how things play out.

 

[atlashunter]

Really??? He's 21? If he wanted to shoot himself, is it gonna take you to leave a gun around for him to shoot himself or is he able to find a gun on his own? wouldn't ya think, no matter what you do, he's gonna work on his own free will, if'n he wants to kill himself? regardless of who you are?

Let's revisit what you said earlier in the thread.

Well I thought I sort of answered it but I guess you'd have to see it from where I'm sittin' to get it. So i'll break it down.

There is no sin in heaven....because there is no satan.

But yes I believe we have free will. But there is no sin, so sin is not in our hearts...we will have pure hearts.

We will have the desires of our hearts. The desires of our hearts will be different than the desires of someone elses.

My free will may be to ( and this is using my imagination ok?) grow the best tomatoes in the county(which I'd like to do now)...I'd like to be able to make and give my jewelry away (which I'd like to do now, but can't afford to), I'd like to make my famous,lol, NY style chili for anyone who wants some and give it away. While someone else's free will might be to go fishing or go hunting or grow a big garden or climb mount everest.

Free will will be sin free because there is no satan....that doesn't seem too hard to me for anyone to figure out or understand.

Course that's just my opinion.......

You made clear here that it wasn't only free will that accounted for disobedience (sin) toward God but the combination of free will and Satan. According to you God will eliminate sin in heaven by eliminating Satan and free will can remain. I'm not sure what special quality Satan must have that he can choose to exercise his free will to rebel without anyone else's assistance but humans can't but let us accept your premise.

If there will be no sin in heaven because of Satan's absence who makes that decision and ensures that it is so if not God? Is it not his choice?

Conversely, when the garden of Eden was created whose decision was it to permit Satan into this creation thus creating the conditions for sin when combined with Adam's free will? Was it Adam's decision to have free will or was it God's? Was it Adam's decision that Satan be created or was it God's? Was it Adam's decision to grant Satan access into this new creation or was it God's?

If God didn't want Satan to enter the picture then why did he choose not to stop him as you say he will do in heaven? He chose to allow Satan there to tempt Adam. He chose to grant Adam free will. He chose to put in place the two conditions that you are claiming account for sin and he did so with the full knowledge that these choices would result in sin. You've already indicated that there was another option, free will but no Satan and that would have prevented sin. Yet that isn't what God chose. What other explanation can there be for that choice other than that he chose for man to fall? It couldn't have been a test because he already knew what the outcome would be.

Well I wouldn't leave a loaded gun out on a table, but I would let my granddaughter go to the beach. I know what would happen in either case....or at least what could happen. I know for sure she'd fry in the sun, I don't know for sure she wouldn't play with the gun, but I know what would happen if she did, so I'd have to be in control of that circumstance and not leave that to her free will. Course if she was 21, I could probably count on her to mind me and not touch the gun and hopefully use sunscreen too, if I told her to.

More than can be said of God.

 

[BrettJ]

There is Gods will and Gods permissive will. If God wanted satan in the Garden of Eden he would have put him there. If God didnt want satan in the Garden of Eden he would have kept him out. But if God permited satan to go there whether He wanted him there or not is His permissive will. God knows the the begining and the end. Why things happen like they do is unknown to me. I dont run things God does. He has a plan and Im sure my little brain cant understand it but I know it will work out the be the best because God is in control. If God lets you get sunburned oh well. He has a plan. If God lets childen die in tornados and hurricanes oh well. It is a bad thing for us to loose our children but God has a plan. God is not here to make us happy, healthy and weathy. He wants us to be holy. It seems that there are a lot of people trying to figure out God in a way he never intended us to. God is not a person or celebrity. He is not to be messed with. He is a Holy God that is just and full of grace and love. Some of these questions are very intersting and fun to talk about but will we ever fully understand the answers. I doubt it. God is God and we are just people with limited minds. If we are going to pose all these questions, lets do it with intensions of growing closer to God with better understanding rather than putting him in a box and poking at him or blaming him for somthing that didnt go our way.

 

[BrettJ]

About free will in heaven. If you want to sin in heaven with your free will you could. But like I said earlier there is no sin in heaven so you cant. Use your free will to breath under water. Just because you will to breath under water you cant. In heaven it will be much different because how can you will to do something that doesnt exist.

 

[stringmusic]

About free will in heaven. If you want to sin in heaven with your free will you could. But like I said earlier there is no sin in heaven so you cant. Use your free will to breath under water. Just because you will to breath under water you cant. In heaven it will be much different because how can you will to do something that doesnt exist.

Pretty cool analogy Brett. Thanks for posting.

 

[atlashunter]

There is Gods will and Gods permissive will. If God wanted satan in the Garden of Eden he would have put him there. If God didnt want satan in the Garden of Eden he would have kept him out. But if God permited satan to go there whether He wanted him there or not is His permissive will.

Whether you place a rattlesnake in your child's crib or whether you stand by and watch it enter on it's own with the full knowledge of the outcome makes little difference. Both constitute a choice on your part.