Jesus' deity was divinely limited

[hobbs27]

Where do you get such an idea. Acts is clear, it never implies anything other than he was a man. Acts 2:22,Acts 3:22, Acts 4:26b, Acts 10:38,Acts 17:31, 25:19 Mercy, Only through trinitarian glasses

You have your blinders on obviously! Yes they say this man but continue on to say in 36 verse chapter 2 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

I've laid out my case on this subject , I've provided tons of scripture to back it, and now it' s up to whoever reads to ask the Holy Spirit to guide them in the way that is right...I know Jesus is God and he died for me, that I may have eternal life, and He lives as King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

 

[1gr8bldr]

... but what then was so different about Jesus? God was pleased with many men. Why was John the Baptist not elevated to the right hand of God? Jesus Himself said of John:


"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist ..."

-- Matt 11:11


... but look how John speaks of Jesus:


"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

-- Matt 3:11-12

Does it sound to you like John is talking about a mortal man? It doesn't sound like that to me.

He was The one spoken of from the beginning, all through the OT. The one who was expected/prophesied about. He was our first servant king. He overcame the power of our nature and was without sin. He bravely by faith endured the cross. He had awsome faith that if he did this that he would be raised just as the scriptures declared. He was raised, the firstborn from the dead. Death no longer can bind him. He in humility, said about all he could to make sure that no one thought that he was taking credit for anything that God might do through him. Unlike Moses who said "must I bring water from this rock". He is our attoning sacrifice because he is God's firstborn. Now he sits at his Father's side, his God and my God, where he mediates for his brothers when they sin. He is coming back to rule and then at some time to hand all things back over to the Father [1 Cor 15:25-28 most denied scripture of trins]. He has been given a name above all others. God has given all authority to him. That is what comes to mind. Not God, but second only to God, even above the angels

 

[hobbs27]

Mercy, Did not Sarah call Abraham Lord. Look up the use of "master" everywhere you can find it in the NT. Half the time they render it Lord and half the time master, but it is the same greek word. Also, "The Lord said to my Lord" Those are different greek words translated the same. What a mess our biased translators have made.

The OT used the Hebrew language, and the Hebrew for Lord translated into English has several meanings, here they are along with the Greek
Lord,
Adown - sovereign, ie controller
Adonay - the Lord
Gbiyr - master
Yahh - Jehovah, self existent or Eternal
Yhovah - Jehovah, self existent
Mare - master
Rab - great
Shaliysh - officer of the third rank
Despotes - absolute ruler
Kurieuo - to rule, be master of
Kurios - supreme controller
Rhabbonni- my master
I know, I know....Those translaters did a terrible job.

 

[1gr8bldr]

You have your blinders on obviously! Yes they say this man but continue on to say in 36 verse chapter 2 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

I've laid out my case on this subject , I've provided tons of scripture to back it, and now it' s up to whoever reads to ask the Holy Spirit to guide them in the way that is right...I know Jesus is God and he died for me, that I may have eternal life, and He lives as King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

What you have is an incorrect definition of Lord. God has made him master, not God has made him God. You have not addressed anything I have presented. I have addressed everything you have presented. God did not die for anybody. Have you not seen the verse that says God cannot die? Your belief system claims he raised himself. If so then he was not dead and your still in your sins. I serve a Jesus who died and was raised by his Father. Dead. He was the "firstborn" from the dead. Death no longer has hold on him like it did ole Zack. Why, because "he was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit. What was that Spirit, See Acts 2 :33 "He received the promised Holy Spirit..." Now why would God the Son have need of receiving his coequal third person of the trinity that he is part of?

 

[Artfuldodger]

I believe Jesus is the Son of God, born of a virgin, and died for our sins. He is the mediator between us and God. There is no other way to get to God without going through Jesus. Jesus doesn't know when he is coming back to earth, God does.
He has to have some diety being the Son of God to die for our sins. No ordinary man could die for our sins. No angel(Michael) could die for our sins.
Do I have it all figured out: NO!
John 14:1-7
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going” Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

 

[hobbs27]

I believe Jesus is the Son of God, born of a virgin, and died for our sins. He is the mediator between us and God. There is no other way to get to God without going through Jesus. Jesus doesn't know when he is coming back to earth, God does.
He has to have some diety being the Son of God to die for our sins. No ordinary man could die for our sins. No angel(Michael) could die for our sins.
Do I have it all figured out: NO!
John 14:1-7

God Bless you! No ordinary man can be born of a virgin!

 

[Artfuldodger]

1gr8bldr; How do you explain that Jesus was with God before the Earth was created?

 

[1gr8bldr]

The OT used the Hebrew language, and the Hebrew for Lord translated into English has several meanings, here they are along with the Greek
Lord,
Adown - sovereign, ie controller
Adonay - the Lord
Gbiyr - master
Yahh - Jehovah, self existent or Eternal
Yhovah - Jehovah, self existent
Mare - master
Rab - great
Shaliysh - officer of the third rank
Despotes - absolute ruler
Kurieuo - to rule, be master of
Kurios - supreme controller
Rhabbonni- my master
I know, I know....Those translaters did a terrible job.

Like I said, look up where you see master used in the NT. What greek word do you see? Now look at most all the uses of Lord. They are the same. Now why would they translate it one way then another? with the same greek word. Unless one does his homework, he is trapped in the translators own belief system. Same thing with what I mentioned earlier. The "in" incorrectly translated as "by" In Eph we see it used correctly. For you are created "in" Christ Jesus, to do good works which God prepared in advance..." Can you see that here they could not try to pull of this same corruption. Because of context. Yet later they do try in Collosians.

 

[1gr8bldr]

1gr8bldr; How do you explain that Jesus was with God before the Earth was created?

Are you getting that idea from John 1:1 or from those places that say he is from heaven? Lets talk about the from. The from is from the thought "born from above" the greek says "born from above" where as the NIV and most others say "born again" [John 3}. Do you see my point? He is not from heaven as if he were there before, he says he is "born from above" Also we see the religious saying "by what authority are you doing these things" He ask them about John "From heaven or from earth, I think that is right,. So we see this is by what "authority". He came in his Fathers name just as Moses came in God's name. Hope that helps. This usually leads to a couple more questions about this.

 

[hummerpoo]

Love has power to dissolve boundaries, break down walls, lay waste our defenses.
Could it be perfect love removes them all completely?

If we are still afraid that losing ourselves has bad consequences, perhaps we are viewing something from the outside that can only be understood from the inside?

I have not been tempted to join this conversation, having never achieved agreement with myself on the subject, but you have touched on something that I have sometimes found plausible; that being that the relationship among the Deity is one of perfect love.

There is much more, but speaking of those who believe through the word of those whom the Father gave to Jesus, Jesus prays to the Father, (John 17) 21. that they may all be one; even as You, Father, {are} in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23. I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

I can only cry..MERCY!

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Is this when Jesus gives up his commission as mediator and hands all authority over to God?

 

[1gr8bldr]

I believe Jesus is the Son of God, born of a virgin, and died for our sins. He is the mediator between us and God. There is no other way to get to God without going through Jesus. Jesus doesn't know when he is coming back to earth, God does.
He has to have some diety being the Son of God to die for our sins. No ordinary man could die for our sins. No angel(Michael) could die for our sins.
Do I have it all figured out: NO!
John 14:1-7
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going” Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

God set up the OT rituals and customs as picturistic for us to draw from. OT custom was that the firstborn son was given as the "attoning sacrifice" for the remainder of the family. Meaning that the second or third son did not have to do this. Jesus is the "firstborn" son of God [at his baptismal]. He is no ordinary man. He is the firstborn of God. He is the sacrifice for all his brothers, the family of God. The first to receive his Spirit that came to dwell. Many times the Spirit came upon people, but never to dwell. Jesus was the temple. It was Davids son who was supposede to build the temple, figuretively Solomon. Jesus was that temple. That is why he was so special. He was without sin, that is a fullfilled prophesy, but what makes him the attoning sacrifice is that he is God's firstborn

 

[hobbs27]

What you have is an incorrect definition of Lord. God has made him master, not God has made him God. You have not addressed anything I have presented.

Would it do any good? If you believe Jesus was an ordinary man, we're not even in the same Universe of discussion.Im a Christian, I believe Jesus was born of a virgin and was all man and all God.He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and He is mine.

 

[1gr8bldr]

1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Is this when Jesus gives up his commission as mediator and hands all authority over to God?

I guess so, not sure, something to do with having put everything under his feet

 

[Artfuldodger]

Are you getting that idea from John 1:1 or from those places that say he is from heaven? Lets talk about the from. The from is from the thought "born from above" the greek says "born from above" where as the NIV and most others say "born again" [John 3}. Do you see my point? He is not from heaven as if he were there before, he says he is "born from above" Also we see the religious saying "by what authority are you doing these things" He ask them about John "From heaven or from earth, I think that is right,. So we see this is by what "authority". He came in his Fathers name just as Moses came in God's name. Hope that helps. This usually leads to a couple more questions about this.

I wasn't talking about the down from Heaven verses. Aren't there other verses about Jesus being with God before the Earth was created?

Could you also answer Hobbs27 question: Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother?

 

[1gr8bldr]

Would it do any good? If you believe Jesus was an ordinary man, we're not even in the same Universe of discussion.Im a Christian, I believe Jesus was born of a virgin and was all man and all God.He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and He is mine.

Some are not sure what they believe about the issue. We both "air out" the arguments so that people might observe and make educated decissions. Not because their mother or Grandmother told them so, but because they know the issues. Not debating the person, just the issues. This debate has gone on since early NT times. I don't think we will settle the issue anytime before he returns. I can respect anyone's position, as long as it was built on a careful evaluation. Many just believe what the preacher says, this is what concerns me

 

[1gr8bldr]

I wasn't talking about the down from Heaven verses. Aren't there other verses about Jesus being with God before the Earth was created?

Could you also answer Hobbs27 question: Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother?

There is one or two that have something like that. One of which has the word "returning" added. Another similiar. I should look these up instead of shooting from the hip. But the one is Jesus speaking as the "second Adam". Not that he is Adam, but that he is speaking as if he were.Reason being that now all those of the New Creation have a "new Adam". What I mean by that is that his nature is now in us. No longer Adam's nature. We put that one to death because it was walking death because of the curse "you will surely die"

 

[1gr8bldr]

I wasn't talking about the down from Heaven verses. Aren't there other verses about Jesus being with God before the Earth was created?

Could you also answer Hobbs27 question: Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother?

Gotta give it up for the night. I'll pick back up tomorrow

 

[Artfuldodger]

God set up the OT rituals and customs as picturistic for us to draw from. OT custom was that the firstborn son was given as the "attoning sacrifice" for the remainder of the family. Meaning that the second or third son did not have to do this. Jesus is the "firstborn" son of God [at his baptismal]. He is no ordinary man. He is the firstborn of God. He is the sacrifice for all his brothers, the family of God. The first to receive his Spirit that came to dwell. Many times the Spirit came upon people, but never to dwell. Jesus was the temple. It was Davids son who was supposede to build the temple, figuretively Solomon. Jesus was that temple. That is why he was so special. He was without sin, that is a fullfilled prophesy, but what makes him the attoning sacrifice is that he is God's firstborn

I can see the logic in this knowing the importance of the firstborn son in OT culture. How did God come to pick Jesus? Was he forordained or did God choose him because he had not sinned?

 

[Artfuldodger]

I have not been tempted to join this conversation, having never achieved agreement with myself on the subject, but you have touched on something that I have sometimes found plausible; that being that the relationship among the Deity is one of perfect love.

There is much more, but speaking of those who believe through the word of those whom the Father gave to Jesus, Jesus prays to the Father, (John 17) 21. that they may all be one; even as You, Father, {are} in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23. I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

I can only cry..MERCY!

Love & unity: the key that unites God, Jesus(no matter how you explain him), and us is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit of God which is God's spirit, not another entity. God doesn't need another entity.