Jesus' deity was divinely limited

[1gr8bldr]

I can see the logic in this knowing the importance of the firstborn son in OT culture. How did God come to pick Jesus? Was he forordained or did God choose him because he had not sinned?

He was foreordained. He was "before". Let me explain. Issac is said to be Abrahams firstborn. Yet we know that it was actually Ishmael. Why is this. Because Issac was promised before Ishmael was born.OT saints of faith believed God's promises or word as if it already was, just not yet existing. But existing in word only, as in God said let there be rain. Apply that to Jesus. The word became flesh, or as John says elsewhere, "The life appeared".Promised from the beginning. Another thought. Everything was created in the 7 days. Nothing was created by God "as he went". As mentioned, take rain for example. Created "in word" yet not existing until times set by God. Which in this case was the flood. There was no rain until the flood, yet it was already created in word. Apply that to Jesus

 

[hobbs27]

Could you also answer Hobbs27 question: Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother?

I think he has to go read up on this and find out what he is suppose to say about it. This reminds me of the door to door doctrine dealers that come by ever so often.....well use to, I've been taken off their list....by their choice.

 

[formula1]

Re:

1gr8bldr:

1Tim 1:16 - Your explanation is laughable, completely ignoring the word 'King' and the context of the previous scriptures.

John 17:5 - You did not address it because you can't. And read the rest of John 17 as Jesus said it multiple times. I believe Jesus, not you.

Philipians was put there to describe how Jesus, knowing who He was, chose instead the servant path though He did not have to. He knew His purpose for life in th flesh and lived it out as a clear example. Idols? You are stretching it a bunch.

Hebrews not only address the sinless Holy nature, but He was made perfect as you have stated. The question is when was He made perfect, which you chose a natural interpretion. I merely added explanation of this with Colossians 1, by scripture. You figure it out!

The agent God created was Jesus, totally one with the Father (co-equal) but a different creation of the Father for the Fathers own purpose. That is also clearly described in scriptures provided, yet ignored. It doesn't make me trinitarian or not except in your reasoned world.

You and scripture simply do not agree. I expected you to respond because I know you don't accept the deity of Christ. You arguments are additions to scripture, and not scripture itself and they fail miserably. You cannot fail with scripture as it is! You don't have authority to interpret scripture with natural reasoning for anyone. That belongs to the Holy Spirit who guides us into all the Truth. I will continually pray for you that the Spirit might take off the scales from you eyes. Live and walk and understand by faith! God Bless!

 

[hobbs27]

Some are not sure what they believe about the issue. We both "air out" the arguments so that people might observe and make educated decissions. Not because their mother or Grandmother told them so, but because they know the issues. Not debating the person, just the issues. This debate has gone on since early NT times. I don't think we will settle the issue anytime before he returns. I can respect anyone's position, as long as it was built on a careful evaluation. Many just believe what the preacher says, this is what concerns me

1. Those that are not sure, and even those that are wrong will get their answer when God decides the time is right
2. About airing out the arguments, I know I do this , it's a personality fault, something I have tried to work on.
3. This debate is the one that caused the Jews to scream out, Crucify him! The only thing they could make stick is Jesus claiming to be the Christ or Son of God. He answered to them, "Thou hast said", so if you don't believe Jesus is God, then you believe as the high priests and the scribes that sent Jesus to the cross, or you can play on words and say capitalized Christ or Son of God doesn't mean God, even though the scribes clearly knew Jesus was claiming to be God or they would have not charged him with blasphemy.
4. The book tells us to respect our elders, it also tells us to seek out the old paths. You have authority to question the preached word, and you should also question what mom, or grandma says, but you should hold it to a higher regard. Don't dismiss the knowledge in our elders for their "classroom educations" God teaches the ones that need it most, and when our grandparents and farther back, where surviving many only had God to rely on to get by. I've heard the old timers talk about when they were kids hearing men in the woods crying out to God for rain to wet the fields, I've heard them talk about hearing their moms in the barn crying out to God that he may save all her children. I know of an old time preacher that God called and the man couldn't even read or write, but God made a way.So, yes you can question what they have to offer, but you better not just dismiss it because they didn't meet your standards to an education.
As formula1 said above, I will pray that God opens your eyes to his Word, and pray for me that the Holy Spirit may show me where I err in understanding.

 

[polkhunt]

I do not understand why people think that if you do not agree with the trinity then that somehow takes away from the deity of Jesus. Jesus was of God not God and he was sinless.(may have been or not been perfect two different things) I have always believed in a father a son and a holy spirit but I do not believe they are one in the same, and yes I have read all the scripture that the trinity folks always pull out.

 

[1gr8bldr]

I think he has to go read up on this and find out what he is suppose to say about it. This reminds me of the door to door doctrine dealers that come by ever so often.....well use to, I've been taken off their list....by their choice.

No, I have no need to go read up on anything. My thoughts all come from my own study. Not out of a can. Unitarians as myself, have no teachers. We are all self taught. Most of us are "driven" to search this out. Why? Because I was trinitarian until I turned 40. I searched intently to try to shore up a belief that was falling apart. I knew that comments like"God was born in a manger" or that the HS was a third person, raised red flags. So I began my search to verify these things. The further I pondered the more that began to crumble. Walking away from all that I ever knew was very hard. But believe me, I get nothing from anyone. I shoot from the hip. We have only addressed about half of the socalled trin proof text, of which I already know exactly what I would say. I will address the virgin issue sometime today. It will not be accepted for other reasons.

 

[formula1]

Re:

3. This debate is the one that caused the Jews to scream out, Crucify him! The only thing they could make stick is Jesus claiming to be the Christ or Son of God. He answered to them, "Thou hast said", so if you don't believe Jesus is God, then you believe as the high priests and the scribes that sent Jesus to the cross, or you can play on words and say capitalized Christ or Son of God doesn't mean God, even though the scribes clearly knew Jesus was claiming to be God or they would have not charged him with blasphemy.

Thank you! God spoke to me during the night and reminded me of the very same thing and now I don't have to write it as you have taken care of it for me.

The Holy Spirit is a wonderful teacher, one that you can count on for Truth! God Bless!

 

[1gr8bldr]

The virgin issue; Luke tells us that many have already written accounts about Jesus and that he too decided to do the same. He tells us that he has investigated the issue. He goes into so very deep detail. Take Mary's song for example. How could he possible have investigated this kind of detail? You see Luke was never an eyewitness of anything. He was a disciple of Paul. Paul was ot an eyewitness. What Luke is doing is "embellishing" the account. But everyone will say that Luke is inspired. I say no. Luke's account was chosen from many, after being written 60+ years after the facts, acquired by oral passing, and that from non eyewitnesses, his account was chosen 200 years later to be included in the canon. It was among hundreds of similar writings. Chosen by uninspired men. Are we to assume that just because men chose it 200 years later that God inspired it and not those rejected. That is only part of the issue. As seen in some of my other threads, Luke copied from Mark. Luke must have aquired a copy of Mark yet wanted to be known in his region or circle of influence. So rather than recirlulate Mark's, he decided to make one like it in his own name. He begin to copy. Notice that each story other than the virgin birth goes in almost perfect order. Except the "missing block" . For those that don't know what I am refering to, Lukes copy of Mark had a missing section. He copied right over it without notice. Incorrectly connecting one topic with another. He also gave himself away through many other areas called "editorial fatigue". Also, Mark misquotes some of his OT referrences, Luke has the same. I can point out all this if anyone is interested, in great detail. What we have here is an overzealous attempt to make Jesus fit the expectations of the scripture. Matthew was overzealous in his attempt. He quotes 14-14-14 generations, assuming that since God wrapped it up in this neat little package that it must somehow prove Jesus. But Matthew was wrong. He left out 3 generations so his 14-14-14 is a bust. Luke embellished the issue to create the virgin account. Joseph was Jesus father, within the bounds of marriage, Jesus being the firstborn of that union. He became the Son of God at his baptismal when the HS desended on him and remained. Luke would have had no need to copy anybody if he were inspired of God. One must conclude that this is a man made writing, with things written that he had no way of knowing, of which he had no buisness implying that he did.

 

[1gr8bldr]

I wasn't talking about the down from Heaven verses. Aren't there other verses about Jesus being with God before the Earth was created?

Could you also answer Hobbs27 question: Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother?

Sorry, I did not catch the second part

 

[1gr8bldr]

1. Those that are not sure, and even those that are wrong will get their answer when God decides the time is right
2. About airing out the arguments, I know I do this , it's a personality fault, something I have tried to work on.
3. This debate is the one that caused the Jews to scream out, Crucify him! The only thing they could make stick is Jesus claiming to be the Christ or Son of God. He answered to them, "Thou hast said", so if you don't believe Jesus is God, then you believe as the high priests and the scribes that sent Jesus to the cross, or you can play on words and say capitalized Christ or Son of God doesn't mean God, even though the scribes clearly knew Jesus was claiming to be God or they would have not charged him with blasphemy.
4. The book tells us to respect our elders, it also tells us to seek out the old paths. You have authority to question the preached word, and you should also question what mom, or grandma says, but you should hold it to a higher regard. Don't dismiss the knowledge in our elders for their "classroom educations" God teaches the ones that need it most, and when our grandparents and farther back, where surviving many only had God to rely on to get by. I've heard the old timers talk about when they were kids hearing men in the woods crying out to God for rain to wet the fields, I've heard them talk about hearing their moms in the barn crying out to God that he may save all her children. I know of an old time preacher that God called and the man couldn't even read or write, but God made a way.So, yes you can question what they have to offer, but you better not just dismiss it because they didn't meet your standards to an education.
As formula1 said above, I will pray that God opens your eyes to his Word, and pray for me that the Holy Spirit may show me where I err in understanding.

We should discuss this issue in another thread sometime, The trial, what he was accused of. When it is broken down, it reveals the truth of the matter. Very interesting discussion

 

[gordon 2]

I know that this tread is difficult, even painful for some especially that we are all brothers. It plunges our eyes into the light and yet into it a darkness, a dispair and doubt itself.

I am poor. I have not the mind of one remotely trusting in my reading of scripture and not the readings of others. I have not the wealth of mind of Paul.

But let me share with you what I have and perhaps this one and only thing and then perhaps for only a fraction of it I count you all as brothers and sisters in Christ-- My hope is in a settlement on the subject of this tread.

Where do I start? I have noticed that in our minds, in our hearts in our understanding of our Lord many start with the Father and in this we are not wrong. It is very natural to do. Even pagans at a distance know in their groanings, in nature the hand of the Father.

In the Son? Is He our begining? Is Christ our saviour fully formed in our minds and hearts for our reading of Paul? When I read Paul I read a brother, not Christ, not the Father. Paul words are not the Good News, they build on it.

In the Holy Spirit? Now this I have in my intimate life in the Lord as a beginning and it was my beginning as it was all our beginning. There is only one Holy Spirit to the prophets, to Paul, to Peter, and to you and I, even yet we know different our Father and Christ.


So where do I start?


Once I knew the Father and yet knew little of Him. And Once I knew Jesus and even under the earth in error I bowed my knee to him. I thought that for him, our Jesus, Paul was able to pick up snakes and heal from their poison and I was awed by the miracle powers of God.

And also this is how I knew Jesus then, I saw his arms scrape his fingers in the sand and I saw them scraped on the cross. I gathered my own crown from thorn and scraped it on scripture and knew Jesus at all stations of the cross. Ah! in Jesus Lord I was rich and for my crown I made Him talk in my words?

Today I start from a simple thing. I start from the Holy Spirit the only thing Peter did give me as it was frankly given to him. From this poor thing given to the poor, you are my brothers and our differences little things. In this our poverty, in the Holy Spirit, it is plain who our Saviour is and who gives us a purse full of Light. The heart of darkness absent, there are no forms to seperate the Father from the Son and they from the Holy Spirit.

So I ask you to consider it and to start from the Holy Spirit to see if a settlement is not possible from His arbitration. I don't think in This our deity and our understanding is limited. The Holy Spirit in me is the Father and the Son in me. I start with this fundamental.

 

[centerpin fan]

Not God, but second only to God, even above the angels

... yet seemingly inferior to John the Baptist, according to Jesus Himself.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I too have taken a similar path of 1gr8bldr taking for granted the teachings & preachings of just one denomination that I was raised in. I was not satisfied with answers from them and went looking on my own. With guidance from the Holy Spirit(God) I read the Bible, talked to elders, and researched other denominations and beliefs. I would not want my own children to take my word for what is right but look for answers on their own as I did. I don't want them or anyone to follow my beliefs as I could be wrong.
I can tell 1gr8bldr has did a lot of soul searching on what he believes and did not reach his opinion over night. Like 1gr8bldr, he is just putting his beliefs out their to help people who are trying to figure it all out. He has stated you should do the soul searching as an individual and not just follow what a few preachers preach. I feel some preachers are ordained and some are not.

 

[formula1]

Re:

So I ask you to consider it and to start from the Holy Spirit to see if a settlement is not possible from His arbitration. I don't think in This our deity and our understanding is limited. The Holy Spirit in me is the Father and the Son in me. I start with this fundamental.

Gordon:

There is a wealth of truth in this statement. May God richly continue to bless you for you surely have found favor before Him.

 

[1gr8bldr]

I too have taken a similar path of 1gr8bldr taking for granted the teachings & preachings of just one denomination that I was raised in. I was not satisfied with answers from them and went looking on my own. With guidance from the Holy Spirit(God) I read the Bible, talked to elders, and researched other denominations and beliefs. I would not want my own children to take my word for what is right but look for answers on their own as I did. I don't want them or anyone to follow my beliefs as I could be wrong.
I can tell 1gr8bldr has did a lot of soul searching on what he believes and did not reach his opinion over night. Like 1gr8bldr, he is just putting his beliefs out their to help people who are trying to figure it all out. He has stated you should do the soul searching as an individual and not just follow what a few preachers preach. I feel some preachers are ordained and some are not.

I appreciate this. I too tell my children that I want them to figure out what it is that they believe.

 

[gordon 2]

Gordon:

There is a wealth of truth in this statement. May God richly continue to bless you for you surely have found favor before Him.

If you only knew how I am on many days like Jonah under a dead tree. My relationship in blessing is more than not a simpleton's complaint--a disgust. I am like the prophet who had an unfaithful wife and this was his favor in life. For what proverty I am given in the Spirit--I still have to beg the banker a loan to pay my taxes and the people I love ask, "Do you love me?"

I feel like I have been loosed many days like a rabbit hound , or most of my life, hunting alone without my master. Blessed? It is not me. My heart is in the wrong body.

Yet the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. I have not read it anywhere. Ungraceful, I have no manners for the stories related to me. Except that when my ears again are all torn and my tail shaved and bloodied, and my limbs stiff with pain, late in the day when my master calls me, when the day is done, I come home to Him and all three.

 

[1gr8bldr]

The virgin issue; Luke tells us that many have already written accounts about Jesus and that he too decided to do the same. He tells us that he has investigated the issue. He goes into so very deep detail. Take Mary's song for example. How could he possible have investigated this kind of detail? You see Luke was never an eyewitness of anything. He was a disciple of Paul. Paul was ot an eyewitness. What Luke is doing is "embellishing" the account. But everyone will say that Luke is inspired. I say no. Luke's account was chosen from many, after being written 60+ years after the facts, acquired by oral passing, and that from non eyewitnesses, his account was chosen 200 years later to be included in the canon. It was among hundreds of similar writings. Chosen by uninspired men. Are we to assume that just because men chose it 200 years later that God inspired it and not those rejected. That is only part of the issue. As seen in some of my other threads, Luke copied from Mark. Luke must have aquired a copy of Mark yet wanted to be known in his region or circle of influence. So rather than recirlulate Mark's, he decided to make one like it in his own name. He begin to copy. Notice that each story other than the virgin birth goes in almost perfect order. Except the "missing block" . For those that don't know what I am refering to, Lukes copy of Mark had a missing section. He copied right over it without notice. Incorrectly connecting one topic with another. He also gave himself away through many other areas called "editorial fatigue". Also, Mark misquotes some of his OT referrences, Luke has the same. I can point out all this if anyone is interested, in great detail. What we have here is an overzealous attempt to make Jesus fit the expectations of the scripture. Matthew was overzealous in his attempt. He quotes 14-14-14 generations, assuming that since God wrapped it up in this neat little package that it must somehow prove Jesus. But Matthew was wrong. He left out 3 generations so his 14-14-14 is a bust. Luke embellished the issue to create the virgin account. Joseph was Jesus father, within the bounds of marriage, Jesus being the firstborn of that union. He became the Son of God at his baptismal when the HS desended on him and remained. Luke would have had no need to copy anybody if he were inspired of God. One must conclude that this is a man made writing, with things written that he had no way of knowing, of which he had no buisness implying that he did.

If Jesus is not Jeseph's son, then he is not "the Son of David"

 

[formula1]

If you only knew how I am on many days like Jonah under a dead tree. My relationship in blessing is more than not a simpleton's complaint--a disgust. I am like the prophet who had an unfaithful wife and this is my favor. For what proverty I am given in the Spirit--I still have to beg the banker a loan to pay my taxes and the people I love ask, "Do you love me?"

I feel like I have been loosed many days like a rabbit hound , or most of my life, hunting alone without my master. Blessed? It is not me. My heart is in the wrong body.

Remember, even when days were dark and empty, Joseph still walked in the plan and purposes and with the favor of God!

Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

 

[Huntinfool]

There was no rain until the flood

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........say WHAT???

 

[1gr8bldr]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........say WHAT???

Until the flood, everything was watered by {gen 2 :5+6]"for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth" "but streams came up and watered the whole surface of the ground" Also, the rainbow promise requires the rain. In other words, it would have been there already if it had been raining.