New to reloading and have some questions…

[MtnBear]

First time post very new to reloading. I did my best to dig through the community here and find a similar topic so I apologize if these questions have been asked and answered previously…

A little background beyond my very novice knowledge regarding reloading… I just purchased a new Model 70 chambered in 300 win mag. The rifle has a 26” barrel. I live in Colorado and I’m after medium and occasionally medium-large game with this new beauty. Long story short I purchased a bunch of reloading equipment from an elderly neighbor who I help with stuff around the house. When I found out he was looking to find a new home for his reloading stuff I jumped at the opportunity and agreed immediately to buy it all from him. Exciting! Now I can finally start my loading journey, and my neighbor got his wish to see his gear go to a new home that would appreciate it. He’s a sweet old man and he’s a wealth of knowledge but he’s never loaded or shot enough 300 win mag to help me on this quest… and of course he had to go spoil me and throw in a few extras with the mint-condition gear he sold me at an obscenely low price that he couldn’t be talked out of… The surprise present is as follows:

- A literal Folgers tin can of 169g Sierra matchking sbt. By weight it looks to be about 750 of them ?
- 3 full 1lb containers of IMR4895 (made in Canada by General-Dynamic Ordnance and Tactical Systems between 1978 and 1989)
- 2 full boxes of magnum Winchester rifle primers (couple years old)

So I know what I’ll be using to learn how my new 300 win mag shoots. Given the state of things in the world I’d like to work up a recipe for a hunting load that has the same characteristics as the above list (spitzer, boat tail, jacketed bullet around 168/69g with IMR4895 and Winchester magnum primers). Just seems silly with such an incredible match grade bullet, and so many of them, to go out and buy a different style/weight bullet and powder to get to know my new baby. Problem is Sierra only makes the gameking sbt in 165g and 180g the gamechanger is a similar story.

Now for the very little that I do know… which ironically may not be something that I actually understand yet… ?. My Hodgdon manual states that a 165g cooper jacketed lead bullet will travel at a velocity 3076fps or produce 55,500 cooper units of pressure when loaded to a maximum of 64grains of H4895 or 65grains of IRM4895 from the model 70’s 26” barrel. That seems like good medicine for any medium to medium-large sized game in the Rockies, which is why I want my hunting load to be as identical as possible to my target practice load. So questions… how will these velocity and other figures change if the bullet is 169grain vs the stated 165g in the manual. Can a 165g and 169g bullet with identical features and design be compared apples to apples?

I know basically nothing about this subject beyond what my Sierra and Hodgdon loading manuals tell me. I’ve loaded a few times but again I’m very green. If Sierra doesn’t make a similarly sized/weighted/featured bullet for hunting is there another manufacturer that does? Is a 4grain difference less significant that the actual physical dimensions characteristics of the design in the bullets?

Again I’m very green— if these questions are silly feel free to say so, and please tell me why.

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge. I’m looking forward to being able to brag to my buddies and my kids that what I harvest next season is with ammo I loaded myself.

 

[lampern]

If its legal in your state, you can actually take deer with the 168 gr match king.

Is it ideal? No but it will kill a deer if put in the right spot.

 

[MtnBear]

If its legal in your state, you can actually take deer with the 168 gr match king.

Is it ideal? No but it will kill a deer if put in the right spot.

Appreciate that it might be legal but I don’t want to injure or maim a deer and have it run off to die where I can’t get to it or worse not die at all and just suffer.

Given the matchkings HP is designed to close as it leaves the muzzle vs expanding as it penetrates the skin of the animal seems more an issue of intended purpose vs my pocketbook. Beyond cost and “accuracy is everything” is there a reason hunt with a match bullet? Kinda sounds like something my grandpa would smack me upside the head for considering… sorry if that’s rude, just my gut reaction.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

If you are worried about the bullet performance, buy a couple hundred of the 165gr. Work you a load up for the 169gr (start out with a reduced load and work your way up til you find the load you like. Max loads aren't usually the most accurate) and practice with it. Then work another load up for the 165gr. I bet the powder charges are almost identical, if not exactly identical.

 

[lampern]

Also the 165 version comes in 2 flavors- notched hollow point and spitzer.

 

[MtnBear]

Interesting. So what is the reason for the subtle addition of weight. The 169g matching and the 165g hpsbt gameking are identical in form/design with two differences. The game king is slightly shorter than the matchking and the gameking has a larger aperture hp than the matchking.

Obviously the matchking is going to fly truer when compared to the gameking but their shape is basically identical minus the aforementioned items and change in weight. So if the powder loads are virtually identical and the muzzle velocity of the bullet is basically the same why the difference in weight? Could it be to counter wind and heavier air pockets down range or something else?

 

[lampern]

Different hollowpoint profiles

The profile of the international match king was designed for long range match shooting with its tiny opening but the game king hollow point has a much larger hollow cavity with notches that facilitate expansion when it hits flesh and thus mushrooms.

OTMs usually don't mushroom if they deform and they usually fragment into pieces

 

[MtnBear]

Also the 165 version comes in 2 flavors- notched hollow point and spitzer.

I’ve got 2 of the hpsbt 165g gamekings left from an old box but I don’t want to buy more unless it’s what ends up being the right bullet for the hunting load counter part to my target practice bullet.

I’ve had success with the 165g hpsbt gameking. I know it’s an awesome bullet but it’s an older design and they have tipped game bullets now that are supposed to fly truer than the good old hallow points. If their isn’t much of a difference between a 165g and a 169g bullet from the same manufacturer with the same design features I don’t understand why they’d go out of their way to make the bullet heavier? Or is this just an manufacturing thing. Target bullet has thicker jacket or possibly thinner jacket requiring more/less lead? Is that a crazy though?

 

[MtnBear]

Different hollowpoint profiles

The profile of the international match king was designed for long range match shooting with its tiny opening but the game king hollow point has a much larger hollow cavity with notches that facilitate expansion when it hits flesh and thus mushrooms.

OTMs usually don't mushroom if they deform and they usually fragment into pieces

Right— that’s what I thought. Yeah those old Sierra spitzer bullets with boat tails have served me really well. Just zero experience with the matchking so it’s making me feel more lost then I probably am…

 

[lampern]

In my experience they shoot similar enough for hunting purposes

 

[Nimrod71]

Mtn there are no Silly questions when it comes to reloading. If you don't know the answer, Please ask Us. I shot 300 Win. Mag. when I use to hunt elk in New Mexico. I killed eight with 165 gr. Sierras. The difference in the 165's is the hollow point is made from the 168 Match King without the point it is harder and will not expand as fast as the 165 SBT Game King. I loaded 75 gr. of IMR 4831 powder with CCI Large Rifle primers.

Sounds like you got a good deal on your equipment. If you have any more questions just ask, we will be glad to help.

 

[MtnBear]

In my experience they shoot similar enough for hunting purposes

all things considered equal what’s your experience with the difference either perceived or documented? Or literally too similar to care to find out?

 

[MtnBear]

Mtn there are no Silly questions when it comes to reloading. If you don't know the answer, Please ask Us. I shot 300 Win. Mag. when I use to hunt elk in New Mexico. I killed eight with 165 gr. Sierras. The difference in the 165's is the hollow point is made from the 168 Match King without the point it is harder and will not expand as fast as the 165 SBT Game King. I loaded 75 gr. of IMR 4831 powder with CCI Large Rifle primers.

Sounds like you got a good deal on your equipment. If you have any more questions just ask, we will be glad to help.

My man! I was thinking maybe 165g wasn’t the right dose of medicine for the big boys, but if your taggin them in New Mexico with 165g gamekings I’m very excited indeed!

Would you stick with the hpbt or rock the sbt in 165g gameking? And is the green-tipped gamechanger worth exploring? I ask because I want to dial in this recipe and get to gettin not tinkering!

Finally you referenced imr4831 why not use imr4895 since it is a suggested powder for the 165g gameking?

 

[Nimrod71]

I used the 165 SBT Game King not the Hollow Point on the elk. I would expect the Hollow Point to work just as well if not better. I would suggest maybe trying the Hollow point on Mule Deer first and see how well it performed.

As for the powder, my idea was I am shooting a heavy bullet in a long barreled rifle and the slower burning powder would work better.

I use to hunt in Reo Reba Co. just above Cuba. I was over in Derango in the fall of 2020 and I saw some really fine elk brought in.

 

[MtnBear]

I used the 165 SBT Game King not the Hollow Point on the elk. I would expect the Hollow Point to work just as well if not better. I would suggest maybe trying the Hollow point on Mule Deer first and see how well it performed.

As for the powder, my idea was I am shooting a heavy bullet in a long barreled rifle and the slower burning powder would work better.

I use to hunt in Reo Reba Co. just above Cuba. I was over in Derango in the fall of 2020 and I saw some really fine elk brought in.

So clearly I don’t understand something right… isn’t IMR4895 a slow burning powders specifically designed for 30cal applications? So is the use of a different powder because of manufacture suggestion or because in your experience it performs better? For now I have 3lbs of IMR4895 so I’m compelled to load my hunting ammo with it. Trying to wrap my head around how slow vs fast igniting powder effects accuracy.

Thanks for your input!

 

[lampern]

all things considered equal what’s your experience with the difference either perceived or documented? Or literally too similar to care to find out?

Paper and white tailed deer

Which are not the same as elk

 

[MtnBear]

Paper and white tailed deer

Which are not the same as elk

Very good point. But on paper and against white tail they seem to fly the same in your experience… and that’s great.

Thank you!

 

[Nimrod71]

I have been reloading since 1970 and as I understand it 4895 powders are kind of upper middle burn rate and are used in many midsize brass case calibers. I use it from 223, 22-250, 250, 243, 6 mm, 7mm-08, 308 and 30-06. In these I load from 55 gr to 168 gr. bullets. When I go to Magnum size brass and heavier bullets 7 mm Mag. and 300 Win. Mag. I use the IMR 4831.

As I understand it the faster burning powder will build up pressure faster than the slower burning powder. This could make excessive pressure in the barrel. Also, the 4831 powder fills the cases just about to the top. This makes for a better ignition and more uniform powder burn in the case. I have never loaded 4895 in Magnum cases so I don't know how it fills the case. My Sierra Manual does not list 4895 for the 300 Mag. I have and old Hornady manual Vol. II date 1973 that list 59.9 - 64.6 gr. of 4895 powder. It also list 4831 at 72.1 - 79.0 gr. As you can see there is a big difference in volume. According to this book the 64.6 gr. 4895 load and a 75.5 gr. load of 4831 will give 3,000 fps. loads.

You can load what you have as see how well it shoots and if it works and you get good groups I would use it.

If you have more questions just ask.

 

[MtnBear]

I have been reloading since 1970 and as I understand it 4895 powders are kind of upper middle burn rate and are used in many midsize brass case calibers. I use it from 223, 22-250, 250, 243, 6 mm, 7mm-08, 308 and 30-06. In these I load from 55 gr to 168 gr. bullets. When I go to Magnum size brass and heavier bullets 7 mm Mag. and 300 Win. Mag. I use the IMR 4831.

As I understand it the faster burning powder will build up pressure faster than the slower burning powder. This could make excessive pressure in the barrel. Also, the 4831 powder fills the cases just about to the top. This makes for a better ignition and more uniform powder burn in the case. I have never loaded 4895 in Magnum cases so I don't know how it fills the case. My Sierra Manual does not list 4895 for the 300 Mag. I have and old Hornady manual Vol. II date 1973 that list 59.9 - 64.6 gr. of 4895 powder. It also list 4831 at 72.1 - 79.0 gr. As you can see there is a big difference in volume. According to this book the 64.6 gr. 4895 load and a 75.5 gr. load of 4831 will give 3,000 fps. loads.

You can load what you have as see how well it shoots and if it works and you get good groups I would use it.

If you have more questions just ask.

So my gut tells me, right or wrong, and please help me understand if wrong…

I was gifted this powder from an old reloader that shot m1grands in competition and loaded specifically for said tournaments. So your comments above make a lot of sense to me. Your using 4895 in .308 and 30ott. So I think this calls for a bake off.. right? Get a load dialed with the 169g matchkings using 4895 and one using 4831.

I’d say let the games begin but god knows where I’ll find some 4831 on the front range right meow…

This is in response to your insight Nimrod70, but I say this to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far— THANK YOU! I really appreciate all the solid input.

 

[MtnBear]

Also, I think the debate on which bullet for hunting when looking for a sister bullet to the 169g matchking sbt is the gameking 165g but the jury is out on if I ultimately pick the hpbt or sbt so I guess I’ll need to find a box of each to see which one shoots truer on my model 70

Thanks guys!