Question about selling guns

[1devildog]

GET OFF MY TOE LUKE!!! LOL, just because Im an FFL isnt why I recomend using an FFL, even if I wasnt, today, I would still recomend it. My oppinion, what if, has alot to do with, what if I sell a guy a hand gun, could be one of the most law abiding citezens in the world, just a little careless, leaves his pistol in plain view on the front seat of his car, some banger sees it and snatches it, that night goes and robs and kills an old couple coming home from church? Now, said pistol still happens to be in my name, I'm the men in suits first stop, they just got a break in the case and found me, their comming to me for answers. Now I dont care how the end will turn out, I just dont want the agrivation of it. I have more and more customers that are thinking that way also, the economy and higher crime rates have alot to do with it. Like I said, to me its just not worth the agrivation of dealing with the feds.

 

[cwc]

You will still have to deal with the feds in the above the same weather you sell it through a FFL or not. At least if what I think is true. When I transfer a gun through a FFL they don't pick up the phone and call anyboday and say "hey, take this guy's name off that gun and put this here new fellow's name one it"

-feds get info from manufactor about what dist. gun was sold to
-feds get info from dist. about what store gun was sold to
-feds get info from store about what person gun was sold to

If it was YOU that bought it new now the feds are coming to YOU next. They dont know (yet) that the gun was transfered by a FFL to the next guy untill YOU tell them. Thats the same if you sell it yourself or through a FFL.

So your idea about not having to deal with the agrivation just dont work unless I am missing somthing.

 

[tv_racin_fan]

GET OFF MY TOE LUKE!!! LOL, just because Im an FFL isnt why I recomend using an FFL, even if I wasnt, today, I would still recomend it. My oppinion, what if, has alot to do with, what if I sell a guy a hand gun, could be one of the most law abiding citezens in the world, just a little careless, leaves his pistol in plain view on the front seat of his car, some banger sees it and snatches it, that night goes and robs and kills an old couple coming home from church? Now, said pistol still happens to be in my name, I'm the men in suits first stop, they just got a break in the case and found me, their comming to me for answers. Now I dont care how the end will turn out, I just dont want the agrivation of it. I have more and more customers that are thinking that way also, the economy and higher crime rates have alot to do with it. Like I said, to me its just not worth the agrivation of dealing with the feds.

YOU would still have to deal with the FEDS sir. As has been noted time and time again, when a crime is committed and they have the firearm they can only go to the manufacturer who will point them to the store at which it was ORIGINALLY sold to which the person to whom it was ORIGINALLY sold will have to deal with the FEDS no matter how many more times said firearm was sold and transferred thru an FFL. Now all that said the hassle the ORIGINAL purchaser has to go thru from the FEDS might or might not be lessened due to the fact that the firearm was subsequently transferred thru an FFL.

I see that cwc beat me to the punchline...

 

[Twenty five ought six]

GET OFF MY TOE LUKE!!! LOL, just because Im an FFL isnt why I recomend using an FFL, even if I wasnt, today, I would still recomend it. My oppinion, what if, has alot to do with, what if I sell a guy a hand gun, could be one of the most law abiding citezens in the world, just a little careless, leaves his pistol in plain view on the front seat of his car, some banger sees it and snatches it, that night goes and robs and kills an old couple coming home from church? Now, said pistol still happens to be in my name, I'm the men in suits first stop, they just got a break in the case and found me, their comming to me for answers. Now I dont care how the end will turn out, I just dont want the agrivation of it. I have more and more customers that are thinking that way also, the economy and higher crime rates have alot to do with it. Like I said, to me its just not worth the agrivation of dealing with the feds.

YOU would still have to deal with the FEDS sir. As has been noted time and time again, when a crime is committed and they have the firearm they can only go to the manufacturer who will point them to the store at which it was ORIGINALLY sold to which the person to whom it was ORIGINALLY sold will have to deal with the FEDS no matter how many more times said firearm was sold and transferred thru an FFL. Now all that said the hassle the ORIGINAL purchaser has to go thru from the FEDS might or might not be lessened due to the fact that the firearm was subsequently transferred thru an FFL.

I see that cwc beat me to the punchline...

You folks lead rich fantasy lives, I'll give you that.

 

[tv_racin_fan]

Do I? You telling me that that isn't how it works? You trying to tell me that if I go thru an FFL that it somehow is no longer on the books as being sold to me at the store I bought it from?

Funny thing is the former bro in law was an FFL dealer and he told me that what I said is exactly how it works. He only kept the records and didn't turn it in as that is the LAW. Now maybe you know something I don't or maybe the law was changed after he gave his FFL up but from what I understand it aint changed in that regard.

 

[Twenty five ought six]

Do I? You telling me that that isn't how it works? You trying to tell me that if I go thru an FFL that it somehow is no longer on the books as being sold to me at the store I bought it from?

Funny thing is the former bro in law was an FFL dealer and he told me that what I said is exactly how it works. He only kept the records and didn't turn it in as that is the LAW. Now maybe you know something I don't or maybe the law was changed after he gave his FFL up but from what I understand it aint changed in that regard.

No one said it wasn't one the books, or that there isn't a record at the FFL of the initial purchase. In fact being "on the books" is what makes your apocalyptic scenario impractical.

BATF (or the local police, who do it more often) have to MANUALLY go through the 4473's to find the purchaser of a gun. Unless they know the approximate date of sale of the gun, it is not practical for them to do this.

ALSO the only reason anyone would care about the original purchaser is if the police have a gun and no suspect. That doesn't happen very often. If they have a gun and a suspect, they don't care a whit about the history of the gun. Now that's a fact.

FURTHER if they do take the time and trouble to sit down and sort through hundreds of 4473's, their "investigation" consists of a phone call to you. Of course that's if you have the same phone number you had 10 years ago when you bought the gun. This whole scenario about black Tahoes and masked SWAT squads just because you bought a gun sometime from an FFL is bunk, unless there is some reason to think you are otherwise connected with the crime. If you had worked with either the police or a large FFL, you would know that the fact that there are so many off the book transfers (legal and illegal) of firearms is a primary reason the police don't spend a lot (as in any) time determining who the original purchaser is.

So if you get the warm fuzzies doing all your gun transactions through a FFL because a bad man some where some time might use that gun in some transaction, have at it and sleep well.

As far as real world consequences of doing so, there just aren't any.

 

[tv_racin_fan]

Guess you misunderstood, my point then. My point was exactly that going thru an FFL does more or less nothing for me. I generally follow the law as it is written and don't go out of my way to do stuff there isn't a need for. I don't have a problem with filling out a bill of sale if the private seller wants but I don't want any part of a copy, I have no need for such.

 

[treemanjohn]

Guns are way too politically charged and there's way too much gray area involved for me to start buying and selling guns (without a FFL) for spending money. All of that money that would be made would violently evaporate if you were ever investigated or brought up on charges. It only takes a Sheriff or DA with an agenda

 

[1devildog]

How it generaly works, if a violent crime is commited with a firearm, said firearm is found, subject got away, subject ditched weapon, the search is started from the manufacture. Manufacture gives info to the LEO of the FFL it was transfered to. FFL gives info to LEO. LEO goes to the purchacer of the firearm. Now said person sold the weapon, without the evidence of the sale, said person is a subject of intrest, entitled to have a microscope shoved where the sun dont shine!. Now said person had another FFL transfer the weapon, LEO goes to that FFL to continue the search, said person no longer a person of intrest.
Now even further in the grey area, you sell a weapon to a person that commits a violent crime with it, you can be held responsable in at least a civil suit for that crime because the lawyers will are just trying to make a buc, the family see'e more dollar signs, they want reimburced any way they can for their loss. Not because they maybe sue crazy, but that peice of trash lawyer puts it in their head!.
You can do whatever you want, I just gave my oppinion on the best way to avoid the hassle, thats all. By the way, never have I said anything about black Tahoes or the masked swat squads, I said the guys in suits, you know detectives.

 

[Twenty five ought six]

How it generaly works, if a violent crime is commited with a firearm, said firearm is found, subject got away, subject ditched weapon, the search is started from the manufacture. Manufacture gives info to the LEO of the FFL it was transfered to. FFL gives info to LEO. LEO goes to the purchacer of the firearm. Now said person sold the weapon, without the evidence of the sale, said person is a subject of intrest, entitled to have a microscope shoved where the sun dont shine!. Now said person had another FFL transfer the weapon, LEO goes to that FFL to continue the search, said person no longer a person of intrest.
Now even further in the grey area, you sell a weapon to a person that commits a violent crime with it, you can be held responsable in at least a civil suit for that crime because the lawyers will are just trying to make a buc, the family see'e more dollar signs, they want reimburced any way they can for their loss. Not because they maybe sue crazy, but that peice of trash lawyer puts it in their head!.
You can do whatever you want, I just gave my oppinion on the best way to avoid the hassle, thats all. By the way, never have I said anything about black Tahoes or the masked swat squads, I said the guys in suits, you know detectives.

Sorry that's not the way it works. Course I've only been working in the area for 35 years, so there's probably still lots for me to learn.

Now even further in the grey area, you sell a weapon to a person that commits a violent crime with it, you can be held responsable in at least a civil suit for that crime because the lawyers will are just trying to make a buc, the family see'e more dollar signs, they want reimburced any way they can for their loss. Not because they maybe sue crazy, but that peice of trash lawyer puts it in their head!.

I'm sure you can come up with ONE example where that has ever happened.

Just another internet example of buggers in the closet.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Buying and selling for profit is not illegal. If you are selling via public market, ie Flea Market, etc w/o a license, yes, it is against ATF policy.

Really? So I guess all those guys that I talk to at gun shows that have tables to buy and trade thier collections are doing so illegally? I would think that the cops at the entrances would do something about that.

Some of you guys are hilarious and have no clue.

Couldn't have said it better myself.


As for the rest of you, this issue has been beaten to death on numerous occations.

How about we just let this one die and just use the search feature to read all the responses to this question?

 

[1devildog]

Sorry that's not the way it works. Course I've only been working in the area for 35 years, so there's probably still lots for me to learn.



I'm sure you can come up with ONE example where that has ever happened.

Just another internet example of buggers in the closet.

Sorry, not letting this one die just yet! you say you have been working in the area for 35 years, you just might have a little more to learn! I couldnt get it to copy to paste, so you will have to look it up yourself. Go to atf.gov, click on publications, click firearms, go to ATF P 3312.7. Explains the trace division, funny, says exactly what I said, from the manufature, to the FFL, to the purchacer. Give me some time and I might come up with a few documented court cases also dealing with civil suits.

 

[Twenty five ought six]

Give me some time and I might come up with a few documented court cases also dealing with civil suits.

Take all the time you want, cause it ain't going to happen.