1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
No, before I posted, I looked at the greek original. EDIT, after looking again, I concede that one might read it differently, being that it has an ambiguous option
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1gr8bldr
Senior Member
2 Cor 5:17, For those In Christ are a new creation. Something like that... I should paste it. EDIT, Excuse me, Therefore, if anyone is "In" Christ, he is a new creation.
gordon 2
Senior Member
Let us be biblical then in this case and I therefore submit that all does not mean all individuals to be made alive by resurrection of the body in the case here. 
Because Paul is addressing a congragation of Christians and the "all be made alive" is qualified by verse following or verse 23.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
They that are in Christ is independent of "in Christ" or "in" Christ...baptized, saved, born again, assured... 1st Church of X vs 4h Church of Z, Bible Alone Believer vs Orthodox etc...those with an agenda vs the meek and the just etc.
So the condition of being made alive as Christ was made alive following his death is to be " Christ's at his coming."
Someone very famous is said to have said this:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Because Paul is addressing a congragation of Christians and the "all be made alive" is qualified by verse following or verse 23.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
They that are in Christ is independent of "in Christ" or "in" Christ...baptized, saved, born again, assured... 1st Church of X vs 4h Church of Z, Bible Alone Believer vs Orthodox etc...those with an agenda vs the meek and the just etc.
So the condition of being made alive as Christ was made alive following his death is to be " Christ's at his coming."
Someone very famous is said to have said this:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
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Let us be biblical then in this case and I therefore submit that all does not mean all individuals to be made alive by resurrection of the body in the case here.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
They that are in Christ is independent of "in Christ" or "in" Christ...baptized, saved, born again, assured... 1st Church of X vs 4h Church of Z, Bible Alone Believer vs Orthodox etc...those with an agenda vs the meek and the just etc.
So the condition of being made alive as Christ was made alive following his death is to be " Christ's at his coming."
Someone very famous is said to have said this:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
I'm trying to understand your first point. Is it that you believe some will not even be physically resurrected? You do know there's a resurrection of the just and the unjust, right? (Acts 24:15)
Those that are "Christ's at His coming", are His bride.(the elect, the chosen before the foundation of the world for the kingdom)
Your last reference is speaking of those outside the kingdom. But it's ongoing now. Not just in the future as most think of it.
gordon 2
Senior Member
I'm not saying anything, I'm letting Paul speak but yes, I understand that all will be resurrected, but does that mean all will be changed? Paul seems to indicate that only "they that are in Christ" will be changed.
gordon 2
Senior Member
What do you think the answer to your question is weld?
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I believe the all means all, in the context of eternal habitation.
I do not believe all are included in the bride. Many verses that speak of the elected bride, and the consequential un-elected , are mistakenly applied as "who's going to heaven and who's not."
It's so hard to have a conversation about this subject because so many are deeply rooted in their belief in a "heaven or he11" destiny. It never gets very far.
gordon 2
Senior Member
Well has heaven or **** been mentioned yet? ( Except your statement of observation of it in other conversation...?)
Ok so explain to me what is all in the context of eternal habitation and not all included in the bride... with meaning other than who's going to heaven or not. I really want to know what you mean. I'm willing to go far... serious.
PS Why is your typed **** ok for text and mine is censured? ****"
Ok so explain to me what is all in the context of eternal habitation and not all included in the bride... with meaning other than who's going to heaven or not. I really want to know what you mean. I'm willing to go far... serious.
PS Why is your typed **** ok for text and mine is censured? ****"
I'm saying that I believe Jesus died for the sin of the whole world. ALL individuals. If He didn't, then please, someone show me where it says He didn't.
There are many many texts that seemingly exclude some individuals, but they are speaking of an exclusion from the kingdom, not heaven itself.
....does this help, Gordo?
ps. spell it h-e-1-1
gordon 2
Senior Member
Yes I agree Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, all individuals but I don't understand that all will be saved because of this, even though that he died for the sins of the whole world. Some will never know the kingdom for not seeing it, nor will some know heaven for not being to it...??? So do you need scripture for my views?
You said:. "nor will some know heaven for not being to it...???"
What does this mean?
gordon 2
Senior Member
The not pure of heart will not see God, and therefore I assume will not make it to heaven, unless blindness is a common item there.
The poor of spirit, the kingdom of heaven is theirs, but I have to assume that the folk with a spirit filled like a fat larder won't own a bit of a claim to the kingdom.
Selling all you got to follow Jesus is a rumination of many... and for some it is never, ever digested?
The poor of spirit, the kingdom of heaven is theirs, but I have to assume that the folk with a spirit filled like a fat larder won't own a bit of a claim to the kingdom.
Selling all you got to follow Jesus is a rumination of many... and for some it is never, ever digested?
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I agree with everything you just said, but I must add this to each of your statements:
....in this present life.
Because the kingdom is now. And the kingdom is within us. But it is something we must press into. The violent take it by force. It requires going through a very straight (narrow) gate. It is a "rest" that we labor to enter into.
These things are for now, in this life.
That's why John and then Jesus preached that the kingdom is at hand.
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1gr8bldr
Senior Member
The curse of "time" from immortal to mortal, even the earth is under the curse as it awaits in eager expectations for the sons of God to be revealed, Interestingly we realize that the earth is is ageing as well, under the curse also. It will one day, also, be back to immortal. The text almost personalizes the earth. I don't think it intended to, but rather an analogy
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gordon 2
Senior Member
Yes the Kingdom is now... I agree and I agree that heaven is now in that spiritually a case can be made that we are not separated from it in our faith walks as Christians. ( The prayers of the saints are forwarded-petitioned to God in the heaven described in revelation. "The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand."
The kingdom is by definitions heavenly, or spiritually heavenly. The saints who abide there, having all a common share in a same spirit which animates them, share in the intercessions of our Lord in their prayers regards individuals, the saints, the Chruch and indeed all.
The kingdom is by definitions heavenly, or spiritually heavenly. The saints who abide there, having all a common share in a same spirit which animates them, share in the intercessions of our Lord in their prayers regards individuals, the saints, the Chruch and indeed all.
"....the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."(2 Cor.4:18)
gordon 2
Senior Member
About entering heaven's earthly and heavenly kingdom which is said within us. Yes the kingdom is our rest as Christians, or that is how I describe it. It is from where the saints can claim genuine patriotism without invoking any nationalism because it is were the issues of living are taken up with a heavenly outlook which is independent of philosophical differences in order to achieve wisdom regards human life.
Now how to get there? I firmly understand that all human beings are responsible for their spiritual lives, just as they are responsible to other items of human living, like finance, shelter, food, work, leisure, etc... Also I understand that one cannot make hay in a season that there is none and therefore a good season must be combined with God's call to a person.
Before one can ask Jesus for something, I suggest one has to go where he "is to". It is there that one must spiritually sell all so as to be there present. Then and there it is possible therefore to receive without asking, God knowing what we need before we do, and be changed as when one Zacchaeus climbs a tree to see Jesus go by and the Kingdom was given him though initially most likely Zacchaeus knew it not...
It is from the Kingdom that the acts of Christians issue ---words, declarations and deeds, and from the simple fellowship---also there that a smile (and I suppose a frown occasionally) ministers. It supposes that Christians not only walk as individuals but also as a communion of saints or as a people of God-- and not as solitary and dissenting lone rangers against the wilds of the world.
Now how to get there? I firmly understand that all human beings are responsible for their spiritual lives, just as they are responsible to other items of human living, like finance, shelter, food, work, leisure, etc... Also I understand that one cannot make hay in a season that there is none and therefore a good season must be combined with God's call to a person.
Before one can ask Jesus for something, I suggest one has to go where he "is to". It is there that one must spiritually sell all so as to be there present. Then and there it is possible therefore to receive without asking, God knowing what we need before we do, and be changed as when one Zacchaeus climbs a tree to see Jesus go by and the Kingdom was given him though initially most likely Zacchaeus knew it not...
It is from the Kingdom that the acts of Christians issue ---words, declarations and deeds, and from the simple fellowship---also there that a smile (and I suppose a frown occasionally) ministers. It supposes that Christians not only walk as individuals but also as a communion of saints or as a people of God-- and not as solitary and dissenting lone rangers against the wilds of the world.
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Jesus was exclusive about who could see the kingdom and who could not. Those within, and those without. Why do you suppose that is? Do you think it's because He's preparing a certain group of folks for a certain special purpose? ...His bride perhaps? I think so. I'm reminded of Eph.5:32 here. ("a mystery")
Mark 4
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
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gordon 2
Senior Member
I think that when Jesus said this that some people were so contaminated with the effects of the original sin that they could not know the call of God or that Jesus was their savior. But some still had just hearts as to God's values and could know from first hand witness that there was no need of parable between what Jesus said and what they could understand. There was no need of a story to bring out Godly values and ideals... the communication was direct for them.
Now, this is not an issue with Christians I suspect, because even not knowing they are to the Kingdom many do abide within... I also suspect that seeing the Kingdom for what it is a saint or saints can better judge what is of God and what is not... It is perhaps akin to academic discipline what first sources are to findings and facts and discovery. The first sources are direct fellowship and not indirect as in essentially needing the span of library materials to know love when you see it and when you don't.
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