Another church thread.....long winded OP

[jmharris23]

Imagine you were some fella in the back row who was shy and quiet, had spent a few years in church, but never really established a relationship with anybody. Imagine you did not tithe faithfully. Imagine that you were not in the band. Imagine that the pastor still didn't know the names of your kids.........

.....would those same men have gone to the same lengths for you? Maybe, maybe not.

JB, I am just gonna be honest and say no, they probably would not. But I hope to give you a little insight here.

The church I pastor has around 300 attenders though only around 200-250 show up each week. Some of them are on the 1st and 3rd Sunday rotation I think

That said, even in a church as small as mine, it is nearly impossible to be "intensely involved" in the life of that many people.

The people's whose lives I tend to be involved in are those who for various reasons ...."stand out."

What I mean by this is either they are leaders in the church, i.e. deacons, elders, SS teachers....etc. or they come to me and ask me to be involved with them in some sort of way.

If I have a fella that slips into the worship service on Sunday morning as it begins, and runs to his car as soon as the service is over, and never joins a small group of some sort, then the chances are good that I nor any other church leader will be very involved in his life. I have always made the assumption that if that if that shy, quiet guy sat on the back row for a while and never got himself involved in the church in a deeper way, then he probably didn't want to be?

Am I wrong here?

 

[JB0704]

There are absolutely those out there with legitimate complaints and every single local church has things they need to work on. But, for the most part, the people who have legit issues are the people who recognize ungodly leadership, leave their current church for that reason and go intentionally to find another body that is being led by godly men.

I've just never met a mature believer who has told me they literally cannot find one church that is being led in a godly manner.

I know there are godly men leading Godly churches out there. I think we have a few regular posters here who do so.

But, when we turn around and blame the problems on those who "see" the problems, then we get stuck in a groupthink mentality......where everybody who has a different opinion is now an enemy....and nothing ever gets addressed.

Like I have said many times on here....there are many things I miss about church. But, there are many things which make me hurt just thinking about. And I am tired of being blamed for it. I would rather have an honest discussion of the facts rather than a "you just want everything your way" debate. It's got nothing to do with that.....and everything to do with a genuine concern for the way things are.

I don't "need" to be anybody. But, I also don't want my family to be vulnerable to the mess.......so, what does a man do?

Working on your PM......may take a while.....

 

[JB0704]

I'm just kidding man. Looks like you've got a great place for spring. As long as there aren't 15 other turkey hunters out there, you should be golden.

Got them all to myself, well, me and one other fella who also has no clue how to kill 'em.

 

[Huntinfool]

Mmm...no I don't think so. There are secondary issues at my current church that sometimes have me discouraged. The leadership model is Biblical.

I guess my point is, though, are the secondary issues reason enough to leave the church and relationships you've been committed to? We've said many times, no church has everything right. So the question is, what are the deal breakers? I'd have a hard time thinking of one that would fall outside of a major leadership issue.



I think Christians (in a generic sense) treat churches like the world treats marriages these days (actually Christians treat marriage the same way). When something tough comes along, it's easier to walk away than do the incredibly difficult things necesarry to restore it to what it should be.

 

[JB0704]

If I have a fella that slips into the worship service on Sunday morning as it begins, and runs to his car as soon as the service is over, and never joins a small group of some sort, then the chances are good that I nor any other church leader will be very involved in his life. I have always made the assumption that if that if that shy, quiet guy sat on the back row for a while and never got himself involved in the church in a deeper way, then he probably didn't want to be?

Am I wrong here?

Sometimes.

Right now, every church I visit, I am that guy. But I also know where I have been.....the leaders don't. And some that do want nothing to do with me.

 

[Huntinfool]

But, when we turn around and blame the problems on those who "see" the problems, then we get stuck in a groupthink mentality......where everybody who has a different opinion is now an enemy....and nothing ever gets addressed.

I don't blame those who "see".

Those who "see", point it out and run have very little credibility with me though. Those who "see" and help turn the Titanic, I have incredible respect for.

We all see the problems. I don't think there's anybody blind enough to ignore that they are there.

 

[jmharris23]

Sometimes.

Right now, every church I visit, I am that guy. But I also know where I have been.....the leaders don't. And some that do want nothing to do with me.

Well.....I can't speak for them. I will say that that a leader of a church that doesn't represent the grace and mercy of Christ is a poor leader.

I will also say that unless you are scheduling meetings with these leaders and telling them where you have been and where you are and where you want to be.....it's mighty unfair to come here on the good 'ol internets and say they want nothing to do with you.

If you are doing all that and they want nothing to do with you, then shame on them.

 

[JB0704]

Those who "see", point it out and run have very little credibility with me though. Those who "see" and help turn the Titanic, I have incredible respect for.

I don't know how to say this more clearly than copying from a local church's values page:

We Aren’t Afraid To Fight
We will aggressively defend our unity and the vision that God has given us through our Pastor. (Ephesians 4:3)

There is no turning that ship. And that^^^^is where the modern church is going.....almost every "contemporary" church I have been in has a similar "value."

 

[JB0704]

I will also say that unless you are scheduling meetings with these leaders and telling them where you have been and where you are and where you want to be.....it's mighty unfair to come here on the good 'ol internets and say they want nothing to do with you.

I have tried, unsuccesfully, to schedule meetings with a few of them.

 

[jmharris23]

Well then that's sad and I am sorry.

 

[JB0704]

Well then that's sad and I am sorry.

The problem is that I (and several others) had a relatively ugly split with my last church.....and I guess my reputation proceeds me.....even though nobody has ever asked for "my side."

Seems like there is also a gossip problem in the church.

But, a lot of it goes to the "contemporary" / "traditional" structure....where relationships are avoided by the leaders.

 

[JB0704]

I guess my point is, though, are the secondary issues reason enough to leave the church and relationships you've been committed to? We've said many times, no church has everything right. So the question is, what are the deal breakers? I'd have a hard time thinking of one that would fall outside of a major leadership issue.

I had a "hills to die for" thread a while back. I think doctrine / structure are the "biggies." But.....often the problems here are hidden beneath smaller issues.

Gossip, for instance, is something that is practiced often. Now, most churches will say they are against gossip, yet, when it is confronted, it becomes a "structural" issue...where there is no way for a congregant to walk the Mathew 18 path with the offending party.

I think Christians (in a generic sense) treat churches like the world treats marriages these days (actually Christians treat marriage the same way). When something tough comes along, it's easier to walk away than do the incredibly difficult things necesarry to restore it to what it should be.

Again, when a church is specifically structured so that the head pastor cannot be confronted because they are "defending unity" than there is no way to effectively confront anything.......and the person has to "love it or leave it." Then, they become nomaic Christians, jumping from one "home" to the next.

Eventually, they wake up and realize that they aren't looking for a "new home"......they never had one to start with.

 

[Huntinfool]

Why did it get "ugly"?

 

[Huntinfool]

I had a "hills to die for" thread a while back. I think doctrine / structure are the "biggies." But.....often the problems here are hidden beneath smaller issues.

Gossip, for instance, is something that is practiced often. Now, most churches will say they are against gossip, yet, when it is confronted, it becomes a "structural" issue...where there is no way for a congregant to walk the Mathew 18 path with the offending party.



Again, when a church is specifically structured so that the head pastor cannot be confronted because they are "defending unity" than there is no way to effectively confront anything.......and the person has to "love it or leave it." Then, they become nomaic Christians, jumping from one "home" to the next.

Eventually, they wake up and realize that they aren't looking for a "new home"......they never had one to start with.

I get it. I get it.

Some churches worship the pastor. We agree on that.

Don't go to those churches. They will eventually collapse anyway.

 

[JB0704]

Some churches worship the pastor. We agree on that.

Don't go to those churches. They will eventually collapse anyway.

Exactly.

Now, let me find a church which is a community of believers, and not a business organized around some "visionary," and I will attend it as long as they are sound on the "biggies."

It's that simple.

But, it's also that complicated.

 

[JB0704]

Why did it get "ugly"?

Good people got hurt in a very bad ways based on gossip, and a total lack of Mathew 18 style conflict resolution. Those of us who attempted to confront this incorrect action were given the "nay-sayer" treatment.....which is apparently worse than adultery because it threatens "unity."

It was just a mess, man. I wasn't screaming anything from the mountaintops, justr trying to have direct conversations with people who didn't care to have them.

 

[jmharris23]

Exactly.

Now, let me find a church which is a community of believers, and not a business organized around some "visionary," and I will attend it as long as they are sound on the "biggies."

It's that simple.

But, it's also that complicated.

You just described my church to a T.

 

[rjcruiser]

I guess my point is, though, are the secondary issues reason enough to leave the church and relationships you've been committed to? We've said many times, no church has everything right. So the question is, what are the deal breakers? I'd have a hard time thinking of one that would fall outside of a major leadership issue.

I'll name one....it is one that you have studied a bunch.

Family worship...or in the broader sense, how children's ministry is orchestrated.

 

[Huntinfool]

I just don't see that as a deal breaker. It's something to be worked on. Heck, our church doesn't do it the way I would prefer. I just see our home as the primary religious "institution" in our lives. As long as we do things the way we believe they should be done (biblically speaking), then I can live with the fact that we still seperate kids for church and that we pawn our youth off to a "youth minister".

It really just makes me sad for the kids whose parents DON'T do anything at home.

 

[Michael F. Gray]

In some situations ALL God's children can do is Pray.