Faith / Law

[Dudley Do-Wrong]

It seems that the Easter thread was turning into a law vs. faith discussion, so I decided to start a thread to discuss faith and law.

The way I read it and I have heard this many times, is that some folks believe that the Mosaic law is no longer applicable because Christ “did away” with that requirement. It is my contention that the law is still applicable, though not as a means unto salvation. Likewise, the Old Testament is applicable as well. Now, perhaps I am mis-reading some comments made by others, and I apologize if that is the case. But, allow me to present my case.

Just because we are no longer under the law does not mean it no longer applies, what else constitutes sin?
I John 3:4
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
Romans 3:20
Through the law we become conscious of sin

Jesus said he did not come to “do away” with the law
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The apostles continuously teached obedience
James 2:10-11, NIV. "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For He who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' also said, ‘Do not murder.' If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

The Jewish concept of salvation was following the law and their traditions but they forgot about faith and having a relationship with God.

Matt 22:36-40
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Galatians 2:15-16, NIV. "A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."


Jesus continuously berated the Pharisees about this.
Mat 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The blood sacrifices meant nothing because of their lack of faith. Abraham was not saved by following the law; he was saved by his faith. So, salvation by faith applied even during the Old Testament times as well.
Rom 4:1-5
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Our obedience is a result of our love and faith in Christ Jesus. Obedience without love and faith means nothing to God, Abraham understood this.
Romans 3:27-31, TLB. "Then what can we boast about doing, to earn our salvation? Nothing at all. Why? Because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds; it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in Him. So it is that we are saved by faith in Christ and not by the good things we do. And does God save only the Jews in this way? No, the Gentiles, too, may come to Him in this same manner. God treats us all the same; all, whether Jews or Gentiles, are acquitted if they have faith. Well then, if we are saved by faith, does this mean that we no longer need obey God's laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey Him."

Jesus was the final sacrifice; he alone was/is the perfect sacrifice. Doesn’t matter if the Jews start with blood sacrifices again because there can be no perfect sacrifice except for Christ Himself. His last words on the cross were “it is finished”.

 

[StriperAddict]

God is after our hearts and it's His GRACE in Christ that is the key. God help those blinded by "works" who try and save themselves. They cannot.

Second, the value of the "Law" is that it is a "tutor" which leads us to repentance and faith in Christ for salvation. It's then we maintain the blessing of that salvation by "walking in the Spirit", not in an outwardy show of obedience to the letter of the law.

 

[SBG]

Two good posts right there! That's Bible!

 

[DCarter001]

Jesus continuously berated the Pharisees about this.
Mat 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The blood sacrifices meant nothing because of their lack of faith. Abraham was not saved by following the law; he was saved by his faith. So, salvation by faith applied even during the Old Testament times as well.
Rom 4:1-5
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

DD,
Remember, most of the people of this time did not, actually could not, literally read the scrolls. That was the job of the priests and scribes. They took advantage of their positions to expound upon the things they wanted to "call people out on", all the while ignoring their own shortcomings. Their belief, exactly that you make mention of, was, if i obey the law to the letter, if not its intent, I am still following the law. They suffered from the "works without faith mentality", which is exactly the opposite of what most Christians today suffer from "faith without works mentality". They (priests & scribes) believed, errantly as Christ revealed, if they strictly followed the letter of the law, it mattered not where their hearts were.
That is what Christ revealed in the above quoted scripture. law, judgement, mercy and faith...and not leave the others undone. He is not throwing out the old law, but simply stating, it's more than just following the letter of the law.

I think I'm repeating myself now, and my typing ability has degenerated significantly.
I'll check in tomorrow and see what you think.

 

[Dudley Do-Wrong]

In situations in the Old Testament where 'salvation' is talked about, it is a PHYSICAL salvation... rescued from physical harm. It's not about a SPIRITUAL salvation.

You have really got to explain this one. What does physical salvation have to do with eternal life? Maybe this was the problem, maybe the jews were only concerned about their salvation from slavery and not about eternal salvation. If this is so, then it further supports my contention and the contention of the myriad of Scripture I quoted, that the Jews DID NOT have a covenant relationship with God; that they were concerned only with their physical existence and not spiritual. In fact, this is one of the biggest problems of today.

I’m willing to entertain your “beliefs”, but since we are discussing Biblical issues I ask that you use biblical references to support your beliefs. Other than that, I cannot lend credibility to your statements and/or beliefs. Actually, I’m not certain what you believe, but I am beginning to believe that you have created your own concept of god.

You must be forgetting that the Law was a COVENANT given BY GOD, between God and the Jews. It wasn't simply the Jews' 'tradition', but COMMANDMENTS given to them by God.

No, I haven't forgotten; I seen the movie "The Ten Commandments" about 1000 times. Do some more studying; to the pharasees, the ten commandments were not enough. They had to enact their own rules, somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000, they created numerous traditions that had nothing to do with a covenant relationship with God, it was all about following the rules. In order to put this in perspective, I try to put something like this in terms a human can understand. As a parent, I want my kids to obey because they love, respect, and trust me; not because they have to. If it’s a matter of “they have to”, then they will grow to resent me and resent my rules. Same thing happened to the Jewish people, time and time again, read the Old Testament. Every time the Jewish people moved away from God, He allowed them to be taken into bondage. In fact, Israel was in bondage to Rome at the time of Christ. What eventually happened to Israel? It became a nation no more.

Read 2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

but their everyday life involved God in every aspect

Sadly, this is where you are mistaken. Though I know you disregard the NT as the word of God, one must study those writings to understand why your statement is in error. Well, not entirely; based on your other statement where you used the word "covenant” and that is part of the problem. God created this covenant to show the people that he loved them but that love was not entirely returned. For example, what did the people do when Moses went onto the mountain to get the 10 commandments from God? Huh???

 

[Dudley Do-Wrong]

Dixie,

You are coming up with stuff, that in all of my studies, I have never heard of. First, the Jews NEVER believed salvation was for everyone. That is one of the main reasons the Pharisees opposed Jesus, because He included the Gentiles.

And yes, there are many references to Heaven in the Old Testament, where do you come up with this stuff, definitely not from the Bible. The word “heaven” is used in over 300 verses in the Old Testament. The word “salvation” is used in over 100 verses in the OT. Do I need to quote them all????
You evidently have not done very much research as you have challenged me to do; and you say “There isn’t much there”. Dixie, you are proving through your own lack of biblical knowledge that you have no understanding.

the Jews were not concerned with their eternal salvation because it was not necessary!! That's what you're not understanding... have you ever looked at the Old Testament and really searched for talk of the afterlife or 'heaven' or what happens when you die? There isn't much there! That's because the Jews understand that the afterlife is for EVERYONE, not only a select few.

You contradict yourself in the above statement. First, you say that the Jews were not concerned with eternal life, after-life, or heaven. Then you say that the Jews understand that the afterlife is for everyone. Which way is it? If they had no concern, why would they want to include people they cared nothing for and for something that didn't matter to them? And why do you keep referring to it as “the after-life” as if it’s something out of Greek or Norse mythology?

You say you agree that asserted beliefs should be supported by Scripture yet you offer none; yet, you challenge me to provide Scripture to support my beliefs or to simply refute yours (which have no Biblical foundation).

The same thing Thomas did when Jesus appeared to him after the resurrection... they doubted.

They doubted???? I would say it was a little stronger than “doubted”. They set up a false god, they worshipped a golden calf. Wouldn’t you say that’s more than back sliding or doubting???

 

[Dixie Dawg]

Dixie,

You are coming up with stuff, that in all of my studies, I have never heard of. First, the Jews NEVER believed salvation was for everyone. That is one of the main reasons the Pharisees opposed Jesus, because He included the Gentiles.

I believe you have never heard of some of these things. That's because you have never studied Judaism. The only Judaism you know is the spin that Christianity has put on it. Let's face it, the New Testament is not the most Jew-friendly document out there that someone can read. If you rely on the New Testament and what your preacher has told you in order to understand Judaism, you won't understand it one single bit.

Of course, like all things, there are differing opinions within different sects. But every one I have ever studied with believes that the after-life is not only for the Jews.

And yes, there are many references to Heaven in the Old Testament, where do you come up with this stuff, definitely not from the Bible. The word “heaven” is used in over 300 verses in the Old Testament. The word “salvation” is used in over 100 verses in the OT. Do I need to quote them all????

I get my information from the same bible that you claim says a virgin gives birth (which by the way is not exclusive to Christianity... there were many pagan myths long before Jesus' time who were born of virgins, had 12 disciples, etc. etc.). The problem comes in where Christianity has a complete different meaning for those words than Judaism does. As I said before, the word 'salvation' does not mean spiritual salvation every time it's used like Christians believe. And the word 'heaven' doesn't mean the Christian concept of heaven, either.

(from my notes) "The term "salvation" is not appropriate when discussing Judaism. The word "salvation" implies that one is already condemned to punishment unless one takes action to save himself. This is standard Christian theology, that all men are born guilty and will go to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie unless they accept Jesus, but it is completely foreign to Judaism. In Jewish belief our souls come to this world with a completely clean slate, it is our responsibility to serve God by avoiding sin and doing good. Judaism believes that we will be rewarded for our good deeds and punished for our bad deeds. The primary place for reward and punishment is the afterlife. However, while the belief in reward and punishment is fundamental to Judaism, ideally our motivation for righteousness should not be for reward but out of love for God." (Eliezer C. Abrahamson, Talmud Torah)

You evidently have not done very much research as you have challenged me to do; and you say “There isn’t much there”. Dixie, you are proving through your own lack of biblical knowledge that you have no understanding.

Actually, quite the contrary. Because I have studied with the Jews and have translations of the original Hebrew, I have a greater understanding than I ever did as a Christian. I believe the only way to find out the truth of something is to go to the source. So, I went and asked the Jews. I studied with them. I read their scriptures. I attended shul on Fridays. This took a long time, because many Jews are very skeptical of Christians who want to study with them as it's usually just a way to get their foot in the door to try and convert the Jews to Christianity (which I admit I had felt drawn at one time to do myself). There are 3 main 'divisions' of Judaism... the Orthodox , which are the strictest observers, then you have the Conservative, which are the 'middle' ground and the Reform, which are the most 'lax'. I studied online daily with the Orthodox but the only shul near me is a Reform shul, so that is where I attended (and still do, occassionally).

You contradict yourself in the above statement. First, you say that the Jews were not concerned with eternal life, after-life, or heaven. Then you say that the Jews understand that the afterlife is for everyone. Which way is it? If they had no concern, why would they want to include people they cared nothing for and for something that didn't matter to them? And why do you keep referring to it as “the after-life” as if it’s something out of Greek or Norse mythology?

I don't know what the problem is with me referring to it as the 'after-life'... what do you call it?
Here is someone else's (much better) explaination of what I was trying to say:

"The Torah(Old Testament) does not mention the rewards of the World to Come because that is not what the Torah is about. The rewards that will be received in the future, after life on this realm has ceased, should not be a pertinent factor in one's behavior in the present life. What is relevant to the discourse of life, is life as it is now, life at this very moment.

The intention of performing Mitzvot should not be for the attainment of rewards in the after life, nor, should one feel that life is being lived to rectify that which has been done in the past. What occurred in the past is not important, nor is it important to know what will become of us in a future world, what is relevant is Today. Any diversion of one's attention into the future or the past is a stolen moment from the extraordinary opportunity to live life in the present, and to make it special and worthwhile." (this is from my notes taken previously... from a Jewish website but I don't have down which one).

You say you agree that asserted beliefs should be supported by Scripture yet you offer none; yet, you challenge me to provide Scripture to support my beliefs or to simply refute yours (which have no Biblical foundation).

Oh, but I do have biblical foundation. You want me to list every occurance in the Old Testament where the word 'salvation' is referring to a physical state and not a spiritual one? I would be happy to, if that's what you're asking... but you'll have to give me a day or two!

They doubted???? I would say it was a little stronger than “doubted”. They set up a false god, they worshipped a golden calf. Wouldn’t you say that’s more than back sliding or doubting???

Based on my beliefs, I am unsure how to answer this since I don't see too much difference between worshipping an idol (golden calf) or worshipping a man who claims to be God ....


Hugs,
Kerri

 

[DCarter001]

 

[Double Barrel BB]

Based on my beliefs,
Hugs,
Kerri

Kerri,

You seem to be pretty much concrete in your belief in just the Old Testament.

I am just curious why you feel the need to come on this board and question us:
Is it to try and find a way to believe the New Testament? Or try and find a way to believe in a Savior?
Or try and find a way to discredit the New Testament?

If your purpose for posting is to ask questions, and gain more knowledge in the New Testament, Good. I applaud your efforts.

It seems to me from your post on here that you are soley trying to discredit the New Testament.

Yes I will admit I have never studied with jewish people, but I have studied the Old Testament KJV. I may not be able to convey my thoughts here, because I admit I am not much of a teacher.

I guess what it comes down to is this:

I can't see how someone that believes in the OT, could not believe in the NT.

And you can't see how someone can believe the NT, because of the OT.(Sorry if I am wrong here)

 

[StriperAddict]

Let's face it, the New Testament is not the most Jew-friendly document out there that someone can read. If you rely on the New Testament and what your preacher has told you in order to understand Judaism, you won't understand it one single bit.

Not so. Jesus Himself said, "Salvation is of the Jews", and I'll say this again to every Jew and Christian alike... if you take the Jewish element out of Christianity...

The Prophets (all Jewish)
The Apostles and most writers of the NT (Same)
Jesus' own Jewish roots, etc., etc.,

then there IS NO Christianity !!

 

[Double Barrel BB]

Not so. Jesus Himself said, "Salvation is of the Jews", and I'll say this again to every Jew and Christian alike... if you take the Jewish element out of Christianity...

The Prophets (all Jewish)
The Apostles and most writers of the NT (Same)
Jesus' own Jewish roots, etc., etc.,

then there IS NO Christianity !!

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

DB BB