GOD DOES NOT PREDESTINATE ANY PARTICULAR PERSON TO BE SAVED OR LOST

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
1. What a humble servant - how on earth did you conclude that you’re one of the 3 right ones :bounce:
Am I mistaken? Where I was raised (where we described where we lived in miles from our nearest neighbor) the response to your post would be "name them Yella Belly".

2. The assumption is there are those aren’t thinking of God first. I haven’t seen that from anyone.
You may, or may not, recall that some years ago I told you that my "impression" (my lowest degree of certainty) was that these discussions were, for you, a recreational activity.
 

Jonah Hex

Senior Member
I haven't seen it.
I can't see it.
I am not free to see it.

God does not cause me to demean Him.

I do see this...

"predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

God works the will of man for His own purpose.

God is sovereign. Man is not free.

You see then that God predestinated, me to tell you the truth of His Holy Word.


Matt. 7:1-5
1 Judge not that ye be not judge.
2 For with what judgment ye judge ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thy say to thy brother, let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
Am I mistaken? Where I was raised (where we described where we lived in miles from our nearest neighbor) the response to your post would be "name them Yella Belly".

Where I come from the guilty dog barks. You were not mistaken.
You may, or may not, recall that some years ago I told you that my "impression" (my lowest degree of certainty) was that these discussions were, for you, a recreational activity.
I’m certain that your impressions have failed you more than once.

It takes a poor soul not be able to have fun in your spiritual life, as well as the rest of it :cheers:
 
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gemcgrew

Senior Member
Everything is/was just as it must be. Even prepared to be. And someone was unashamed to be with me in all my own frustration...because He is not ashamed to identify with all that would "pull the trigger" on their very own self. (And take all creation with them)

In truth, that is a part of His work. "I have already done what you cannot do of yourself nor for yourself"

You can do nothing of yourself about yourself.
Amen.

We have never done a single thing first.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
He has seen every aspect of each man’s life. He is all powerful. To not know that is to limit the power of God. Jesus said all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. He knows all. He knows if one was going to change his mind a thousand times over and over each day of our life. He knows the very hairs numbered on our head each day even the ones we loose while washing our hair. If we don’t believe that we limit Gods all knowing power. He spoke the world into existence. Don’t put limitations on his power. Man thinks to much and puts to much criteria on what if. There isn’t no what if’s with God. Nothing has occurred to God for he truly is a know it all. He is the only one.
So to answer my question, the clay has to be what God has already seen what the clay would be. The clay can't change.
 

M80

Useles Billy’s Spiritual Counselor
The potter can mare the clay and remake it. What does that have to do with free will. God can allow things to happen in our life to get our attention. The spirit Burdens our heart and that’s why we listen to the Spirit guiding us. God for is my wife and kids were to die in a car wreck. That would be the will of God though and not a mistake. Do I quit serving God or keeping serving him and worshipping him. That’s the decision I must make. Gods not going to make me serve him or make me walk away. That’s my decision whether I follow him or not. Yet in the end he knew that before the foundations of the world. Still don’t make choosing folks for heaven or he11 if he mares the clay or not.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
The potter can mare the clay and remake it. What does that have to do with free will. God can allow things to happen in our life to get our attention. The spirit Burdens our heart and that’s why we listen to the Spirit guiding us. God for is my wife and kids were to die in a car wreck. That would be the will of God though and not a mistake. Do I quit serving God or keeping serving him and worshipping him. That’s the decision I must make. Gods not going to make me serve him or make me walk away. That’s my decision whether I follow him or not. Yet in the end he knew that before the foundations of the world. Still don’t make choosing folks for heaven or he11 if he mares the clay or not.
Then can the clay become anything other than what God has seen it become? I think you are saying it can't but not for sure.
Let's use Israel and an example. God chose a remnant by grace(using foreknowledge) and hardened the rest(using foreknowledge). Can an individual from either of those groups switch to the other group without God's mercy? Can God have mercy on whom he will have mercy using His power instead of foreknowledge?

And to show I'm not just picking on the Free Will crowd, I'd like to hear from the predestination crowd as well. How could God choose a Remnant and hardened the rest based on just His power since he has already seen what each individual of both groups would do before he chose and hardened? Did he turn off his foreknowledge so as to use His power to have mercy on whom he would have mercy?
 
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Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I'm trying to figure this out in my head. God could have chose a Remnant based on grace and had mercy on whom he had mercy using His will, power, and foreknowledge. Yet this foreknowledge did not include what those individuals would become based on a future look at their works.

God did foresee who he would choose but it wasn't based on God seeing their future works.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
And to show I'm not just picking on the Free Will crowd, I'd like to hear from the predestination crowd as well. How could God choose a Remnant and hardened the rest based on just His power since he has already seen what each individual of both groups would do before he chose and hardened? Did he turn off his foreknowledge so as to use His power to have mercy on whom he would have mercy?
Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

God knows all things because He causes all things.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Who will have God the observer apart from God the actor? Who will have God the seer apart from God the knower? And who will have God the knower apart from God the sustainer, upholder of all things by the word of His power?

If the presence of Christ does not enlighten by that very presence the intimacy of God to all creation what gospel have you received? Is this not being made plain to you?

What mind cannot receive this?

or

What in a mind "keeps it together"?

I have seen logic touted. I have heard mercy turned to a product a man might see and acquire if only positioning himself rightly to purchase in exchange. I have seen a god proposed suspended in creation awaiting what man will do about these things as if, in hands off attitude, he is forbidden (by what?) all the action in creation, but of a creation one side of a mouth says is upheld by him.

Yes, there is confusion.

One man's logic to him is sufficient. Another man's actions are to him, sufficient. And each would put God beholden to give according to their thinking and/or doing.

Some have had their own logic flee...yes even chased away in such profound measure as to being (in being) all of lost to themselves. They have had a root they would never have sought to have cut...cut. They not only know they did not desire this, they could never have even sought it. And rare would it be in that moment (but I would be bold enough to say...impossible) for them to not, to themselves, appraise this as everything "gone wrong". An evil thing being done them, to them, in them.

In short, everything they did not desire. So much so that if one could distill everything a man might conclude to his "not wanting/desiring"...this would be it...except no man could even imagine it.

It's far more than "crazy land", for even crazy land requires a place to stand to appraise it as such. There is no standing here...unless it be...provided.

And I see some who have returned with a testimony. Not merely of "what the Bible says"...but of what God can do to set a man aright...to standing in another place.

Some have touched a man crying "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?".

And of course, this must look and sound all wrong (for many still hold to a god too nice for that).

"Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men".

Yet, and even so...there is no glorying in experience.

Only upon the "who" provided that is now owed all glory that any man might find place to even think...or speak...or act...if allowed.
There is no confusion in the mind of the man whose mind is subject to Christ.

“I will build my Church”

“to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up”

This doctrine has been settled, at least since Orange 2.
Only those who are part of the second schism kick against the goads.
 

Madman

Senior Member
The despising of the “bride” is sad.

Each man now follows those teachings that tickle his ear.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
If in Romans 9 & 11, using Pharoah and Israel as examples, if God chose and hardened using foreknowledge, wouldn't that imply that God chose by works instead of grace?
I thought Paul's whole lesson was that God chose some and hardened others was based on God's grace and God having mercy on whom He would have mercy.
To then say God based it on foreknowledge changes the equation to works. If God looked ahead and based His choosing on works, then it wasn't grace. It wasn't God having mercy on whom He would have mercy.
It also wasn't the Potter making vessels of each type as he pleased but making them based on the works he foresaw that those vessels would become.
 

Jonah Hex

Senior Member
You know it is no wonder people are so confused about the Word of God when people cannot even stay on what the thread is about, but then again that's just the way the devil works the keep people from knowing the truth.
 
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