I love chicken and homosexuals

[BT Charlie]

Re: Homosexuality, sin, repentance, and salvation.

I've yet to see any newborn Christians who received a totally changed life the moment they were saved. New born babes require nurture and tender care. It becomes a process of trusting and depending upon their new Savior. It's about studying to show themselves approved.

A newly saved drunk, homosexual, liar, stealer, murderer, or fornicator can trust that God will forgive them of any....... any sin they commit after their conversion, along as they are sorry that they committed the sin, and wish/hope they never

commit the sin again.

1John 1 and dozens of other scripture.

God can forgive what we cannot forgive.
God will put up with things that we cannot put up with.


But each person must be able to face God's will, and accept it.
If God condemns something, it's condemned. No discussion.

But God forgives, and God is patient. His patience is inhuman.
.

Amen.

And having walked through such a tender time ... and still trekking today ... it seems so cruel, so permanent ... that "loving folk" would trick a people into blindness of sin. Candy coating bad conduct...saying it's all ok...that surely will be tested in fire, with all the rest.

I receive Israel's timeless insights as assuring that Christ is knowable by all...that if we apply works as against any of another's sins, such will be tested,
assuredly, in the fire. And yet not once has he suggested that sin is not sin.

My older brother could break your nose with his fist and then stand you up and make you glad he bought you a beer and told you about what just happened as you wiped yourself up. I think Israel may be like that. Or not.

 

[panfried0419]

Your claim is that people turn away from Christ because other people say their church is wrong. ( absent of sound doctrine). My first love is Jesus Christ, no mans opinion can cause a break in that love, if it did, then there was no love to begin with...understand?

If you "love" Jesus Christ then don't judge others and advise them to leave their church. That's a good start.

 

[centerpin fan]

If you "love" Jesus Christ then don't judge others and advise them to leave their church. That's a good start.

One beggar telling another beggar where there's food is not judging. Similarly, one sinner telling another about the medicine of repentance is not judging.

If you deny repentance to sinners, you're not loving them.

 

[HawgJawl]

Please don't interpret this as an attack on organized religion or an attempt to make preachers look bad. It's just that this type of thing gets more publicity and is therefore known by more people than the exact same sins being committed by regular church members.

I have seen a few preachers begging for forgiveness from their congregation when they have finally been caught in their respective favorite sin. Sometimes they had been having affairs, sometimes they had been embezzling church funds, sometimes they had been arrested soliciting sodemy, etc.

The point is, I've heard these preachers explain succumbing to temptation and sinning. I've never heard one of these preachers say that they were never really saved.

 

[rjcruiser]

If an addict repents and is "saved" but at some point later they become weak, succumb to temptation, and begin committing the sin of their perspective addiction once again, does that meant they were never really saved?

What is their life defined by? Is it defined by their sin? or by Christ?

We are all sinners and will continue to struggle with it until we are glorified. But...what are we defined by? Our lives filled by the Holy Spirit? or our lives filled by sin and unrepentance?

Gal 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.


Pretty simple....do you live a life according to the flesh? or the spirit?

If you "love" Jesus Christ then don't judge others and advise them to leave their church. That's a good start.

But Christ tells us to judge. John 7:24....Judge with Righteous Judgement.

But...based on your posts...you don't go to church do you?

The point is, I've heard these preachers explain succumbing to temptation and sinning. I've never heard one of these preachers say that they were never really saved.

Again, all men are tempted...all men sin.

Does this mean that they were not saved to begin with? Maybe..maybe not. How they respond to that sin...how they're life is characterized will determine whether their repentance is for show or true repentance.

 

[Artfuldodger]

If these other Churches aren't teaching sound doctrine, why not be on their case like ya'll are on the gays? Churches not teaching sound doctrine would be far worse than a few gays trying to infiltrate a Church.
I would think ya'll would be on the doorsteps of the other Churches every Sunday telling them how wrong they are.

 

[Artfuldodger]

What is their life defined by? Is it defined by their sin? or by Christ?

We are all sinners and will continue to struggle with it until we are glorified. But...what are we defined by? Our lives filled by the Holy Spirit? or our lives filled by sin and unrepentance?

Gal 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.


Pretty simple....do you live a life according to the flesh? or the spirit?



But Christ tells us to judge. John 7:24....Judge with Righteous Judgement.

But...based on your posts...you don't go to church do you?



Again, all men are tempted...all men sin.

Does this mean that they were not saved to begin with? Maybe..maybe not. How they respond to that sin...how they're life is characterized will determine whether their repentance is for show or true repentance.

So the way you see Salvation is totally based on repentance? It's ok to sin as long as you repent?
This repentance thing is worth delving into, correct? It's worth learning how the Holy Spirit works it into our Sanctification. Is it a work and is some of it from the individual?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Gal 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

So when we see Christians doing any of those things listed in the verse above, this is proof they don't belong to Christ? Is that what verse 24 is saying? It doesn't say anything about repenting, just living.

 

[hobbs27]

If these other Churches aren't teaching sound doctrine, why not be on their case like ya'll are on the gays? Churches not teaching sound doctrine would be far worse than a few gays trying to infiltrate a Church.
I would think ya'll would be on the doorsteps of the other Churches every Sunday telling them how wrong they are.

Who is on the gays case? Is it not better and more loving to spread the word of God, than to hide it and encourage someone to continue living in a way that will keep them from the kingdom of heaven?

To support sin over Gods word is hateful.

 

[centerpin fan]

But...based on your posts...you don't go to church do you?

He was going to 12 Stone:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=704425

12 Stone is a Wesleyan church, though, which holds the traditional view that homosexuality is sin.

 

[centerpin fan]

Centerpin Fan, I am wondering to what extent, if any, you think the fire Israel speaks of in his "Behold I come quickly" thread, which I pulled up this evening, is applicable to us here in responding to PaleRider's worldview on how he believes Christ followers and the church should relate to homosexuals? Not trying to muddy the water, just suggest a pre-fire pressure test of the defense of our hope. Blessings.

I’m not sure I understand your question. I read that thread, but I don’t see the relationship. Maybe I’m missing something.

 

[rjcruiser]

If these other Churches aren't teaching sound doctrine, why not be on their case like ya'll are on the gays? Churches not teaching sound doctrine would be far worse than a few gays trying to infiltrate a Church.
I would think ya'll would be on the doorsteps of the other Churches every Sunday telling them how wrong they are.

I think you'll see plenty of threads on here condemning false doctrine.

That being said, it isn't just "a few gays trying to infiltrate the church."

So the way you see Salvation is totally based on repentance? It's ok to sin as long as you repent?
This repentance thing is worth delving into, correct? It's worth learning how the Holy Spirit works it into our Sanctification. Is it a work and is some of it from the individual?

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

So when we see Christians doing any of those things listed in the verse above, this is proof they don't belong to Christ? Is that what verse 24 is saying? It doesn't say anything about repenting, just living.

Not doing...obviously, Christians are going to sin. But is their life marked by sin? or is it marked by Christ?

He was going to 12 Stone:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=704425

12 Stone is a Wesleyan church, though, which holds the traditional view that homosexuality is sin.

Ahh..missed that one...wonder if he's still going.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Nothing here about repentance, just to quit sinning.

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Galatians 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 5:29-30
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into he11. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into he11.

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the he11 of fire.

Matthew 5:48
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

None of these verses say anything about repentance. They say We should not sin. We should keep God's commandments. We must do the will of the Father. We must be perfect.
Not much wiggle room in the verses above. If you can't meet the expectations of the verses above then you do not know God, you are a liar, God will say he never knew you.
If you can't quit sinning, you are doomed. Might as well quit worring about the plank in your neighbor's eye.

 

[rjcruiser]

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Nothing here about repentance, just to quit sinning.

Really? That's what repentence is all about.

The beginning of Romans is all about justification by faith....the fact that God's grace covers our sins. But, that salvation/justification through faith is not a "free to sin" pass. True saving faith is represented by a changed life. A life of repentance...a life that is more than lip service...a life that is striving to please God. And when we do stumble...we get back up with God's help and keep running the race.


Romans 6 is why OSAS should be better put as if saved always saved. Because a person who walked the aisle and said a prayer isn't going to go on living a life filled with sin if they're genuinely saved.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The word Metanoia, is the Greek word, for Repentance. Few words have ever caused more controversy and started more arguments. In fact, repentance has become such an untouchable idol in the church, that few would even examine its meaning to see if what we have been taught is true or not. It’s almost like a drug in the Church, that you can paint the most beautiful picture of God’s grace, Love and his generosity, as long as it is only reserved for those who spend hours in knee bruising. navel gazing, snot-dripping repentance.

http://christianstt.com/by-his-blood-metanoia-repentance/

 

[Artfuldodger]

Really? That's what repentence is all about.

The beginning of Romans is all about justification by faith....the fact that God's grace covers our sins. But, that salvation/justification through faith is not a "free to sin" pass. True saving faith is represented by a changed life. A life of repentance...a life that is more than lip service...a life that is striving to please God. And when we do stumble...we get back up with God's help and keep running the race.


Romans 6 is why OSAS should be better put as if saved always saved. Because a person who walked the aisle and said a prayer isn't going to go on living a life filled with sin if they're genuinely saved.

Define "filled with sin" using Bible verses. Either someone is saved or they aren't. There is no such thing as "half-saved." Either people stop sinning or they don't. Either people are changed or they aren't. There is no gray areas concerning salvation.
Again I would like to see verses that talk about someone being filled with sin. Is that one a day or ten every Saturday night?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Who is on the gays case? Is it not better and more loving to spread the word of God, than to hide it and encourage someone to continue living in a way that will keep them from the kingdom of heaven?

To support sin over Gods word is hateful.

You are OK with what you know enough about the use of the word "homosexual" in the Bible in your confidence it will keep them out of the Kingdom of Heaven?
The other sins on the list will not keep us from seeing the Kingdom of Heaven?
If we aren't willing to support a sin, then we should not support any sin. Christians should not sin. We should not even associate with any Christian that sins regardless of how often they repent.

 

[Artfuldodger]

What or where is the line drawn in the sand of how many sins we can commit and not be living a "life of sin" or we aren't "filled with sin?" How is man to repent? If a Christian sins, then he just didn't get enough of the Holy Spirit to help him quit. He just got a little bit of the spirit, therefore, he was never saved. Does the Holy Spirit help me repent? If I don't repent then was I never elected?
What are the basic guidelines for all of this. Does the Bible spell it all out? I need help doing this, not general verses and personal thoughts. I need to know how many sins am I alloted in a week and still get to Heaven. How often do I repent and confess? Is every Saturday night after my weekly bath OK? Am I getting too Legal with my request? Should I just look at it from my heart? Should it be more of a spiritual thing between me an God and not such a physical/flesh thing? Doesn't every Christian know whats right or wrong within themselves? Isn't it written in our hearts?

 

[panfried0419]

Rjcruiser I go every Sunday