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opinions on joining the free masons.
- Thread starter CrazyCatfish
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CrazyCatfish
Member
artful, you have some really good points and have really made me think.. i have heard the term supreme ruler of the universe. i guess i always down play it because i know what is in my heart. to me there is really not any difference in praying at lodge with a guy who is chatholic, or muslim, or hindu or anything. the only thing the lodge requires is that you believe in a god or a supreme being. i ma not exactly sure what the fore fathers had in there mind when they designed all of this hundreds of years ago. to me its the same as a work place or school made up of jews, catholics or hindu's. when i bow my head and i say my prayers i know in my heart who and what i am praying too. it is all about what is in YOUR own heart. and that is what the lodge is really all about.. doing good from what is in your own heart. in theory there really aren't all these crazy secrets or ideas about overtaking the world all that jazz. it is just about helping your fellow man and you being a better person overall. the lodge makes a good man a great man. but one thing folks dont point out much is as you get further into masonry ( the yorkrite way ) you will learn that there are parts you can only join and be apart of if you are a christian and believe in god and jesus christ. i know i am a lil ol country boy and i am not the best at spelling or expressing myself but i hope this helps.... we are a small lodge too and we only have christians in ours but we would never turn any others away..
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
It is a lot to think about. Nothing wrong with a feller trying to better himself. Good luck on your travels. I too will be looking to the East for the light.
The Enlightenment, Deism, Rosicrucianism, Hermeticism, & Cabala all have ideals of the Great Architect being Universal. They are just other avenues of finding the "light." They are all based on the Universal approach of God and Salvation.
The Rosicrucian spiritual path incorporates: philosophy, kabbalah, and divine magic. It's the Order of the Rose and Cross. The degrees of the Chapter of Rose Croix are very complex. They attempt to invest the candidate with a deeper understanding of Religion, Philosophy, Ethics, and History. This is in the Scottish Rite. 18th degree - Knight Rose Croix: This degree teaches that life and it's strengths come from God.
I can't argue about anyone trying to better themselves or a degree that teaches strengths come from God.
I only have trouble praying & worshiping intimately with individuals seeking the "light" from different avenues other than Jesus. I could go to a Muslim Mosque or a Cabala encounter occasionally, but I just don't know if I'm comfortable to "lodging" or "meeting" with such individuals monthly. As you said your little lodge is all Christian but the Fraternity isn't.
It's all based on how an individual can justify or search their soul on these matters. I can work freely with a Hindu, break bread with Jew, play ball with an Atheist, camp with a Muslim, fish with a Wiccan, etc. I'm a pretty liberal person. I do accept that other people seek Heaven by other avenues.
Works or being a good person are very important. Your organization places more emphasis on an individuals "works" as related to a path to Heaven than I personally adhere to.
Again we all are just trying to be better people. Maybe it is possible that there are many paths to salvation, enlightenment, Heaven, goodness, rebirth, helping others, science, nature, mysticism, immortality, God, etc.
For all of mankind I hope this is true.
Unfortunately, I don't believe there are many paths to immortality. I don't even think an individuals good works will help a good old country feller out too much.
May the Force be with you.
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Israel
BANNED
Indeed. The forming of secret clubs...the appeal of such...comes from somewhere, and leads to somewhere...not wholesome.
White Horse
Senior Member
Gentlemen, the Masonic Lodge is not a secret society. Lodges have signs right in front telling what they are, and advertising meeting nights. No Masons try to cover up their membership in the lodge. Masons are proud to belong, and wear their rings, display their car tags, bumper stickers, etc. with pride.
There is nothing in Freemasonry that any Christian would find offensive. If there were, then George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Roy Clark, Red Skelton, or White Horse would not have been Masons.
Don't preach from ignorance.
gemcgrew
Senior Member
As a former proud person, and I say former with much apprehension and a need to have it sliced a bit deeper, I am offended by your statements in blue...as a Christian.
White Horse
Senior Member
I would say that, judging from your statements and leading questions in this thread, you are looking for something to be offended about.
Please give us specifics of what you found offensive in your own experience of Freemasonry, including what Masonic jurisdiction you were in.
Please give us specifics of what you found offensive in your own experience of Freemasonry, including what Masonic jurisdiction you were in.
centerpin fan
Senior Member
This thread just won't die.
White Horse
Senior Member
"Pride" defined in the American Heritage College Dictionary:
1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self respect.
2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, a possession, or association.
3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment, haughtiness.
...and there are several other meanings for the word "pride."
You haven't answered, but I expect that you are making reference to the use of the word "pride" in Proverbs. I would maintain that in Proverbs 16 Solomon meant pride in the sense of the third definition above. My statements about Masons being proud of their membership in Masonry meant that word in the sense of definitions one and two above. There may be some Masons who are arrogant or haughty about their membership in the Lodge, but I don't know any, and I know lots of Masons.
1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self respect.
2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, a possession, or association.
3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment, haughtiness.
...and there are several other meanings for the word "pride."
You haven't answered, but I expect that you are making reference to the use of the word "pride" in Proverbs. I would maintain that in Proverbs 16 Solomon meant pride in the sense of the third definition above. My statements about Masons being proud of their membership in Masonry meant that word in the sense of definitions one and two above. There may be some Masons who are arrogant or haughty about their membership in the Lodge, but I don't know any, and I know lots of Masons.
firebiker
Senior Member
... until April Fool's 2015.
whats gonna happen then ? you're going to turn into a pumpkin and shut the heck UP !
centerpin fan
Senior Member
whats gonna happen then ? you're going to turn into a pumpkin and shut the heck UP !
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ThomasCobb123
Senior Member
There is no higher masonic degree above the sublime degree of Master Mason, the 3rd degree in a 'blue' or symbolic lodge.
There are other degrees and rites....all the way to 32, (33 being honorary) but none are "higher" than that of Master Mason.
Members of the craft know that...you do not.
Masonry does not offer or promise any plan of salvation, initiates are taught that when they are admitted.
A part of a welcoming lecture (not any "secret") states that...."Freemasonry is a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by signs and symbols".
No Mason should openly solicit another person for membership. The request for membership must come from the candidate himself.
There is a slogan "2B1 ask 1"
None of this is "secret" and is usually only offensive to religious extremists or those with an ax to grind.
So mote it be.
gemcgrew
Senior Member
And Christians.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Thanks for clearing up the degrees and secrecy. I don't consider myself a religious extremist nor do I have an ax to grind. I'm only looking for the correct path to the truth & light. Does Freemasonry offer me this path?
White Horse
Senior Member
That would be ***some*** Christians. Since the vast majority of Masons are Christians, Masonry can't possibly be offensive to all Christians.
Are you an "extremist" or do you have an ax to grind, or both?
ThomasCobb123
Senior Member
From my posting #573...I repeat:
Masonry does not offer or promise any plan of salvation, initiates are taught that when they are admitted.
Any belief system that promises to take you to heaven in the hereafter will not be found in the Masonic Lodge. Such a belief will be between the individual and his own personal God. My personal faith tells me that I cannot achieve eternal life except through believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God. And that he died a substitutionary death for me so I would not receive the eternal spiritual death which I deserve. He paid my sin debt for me.
I have no idea what yours tells you.
If a route to a spiritual hereafter is what you call 'truth' you will not find it in a Masonic Lodge.
If you are searching for 'light', the only light you will find in a lodge of Masons is "Masonic Light" and Masonic Light only.
For what it's worth, a person can boast and display every Masonic working tool, every Masonic sign, symbol, or whatever, until the day he dies, but it will NOT get that person one inch closer to eternal life.
This speculative Masonic Light is legendary, even though the characters are taken from the old testament in the King James Bible. Masonic Light is primarily concerned with certain legendary events and activities that occurred in and around the building of King Solomon's temple.
The lessons inculcated therein are by no means of a light or trifling nature. They're some guidelines for living an upright life.
There are Masons who're drunks, adulterers, cheaters in business, just as there are the same types in churches, other fraternal orders, or the U.S. congress. Most Masons, however, attend their lodge meetings as an adjunct to their core religious beliefs.
Curiosity seekers will quickly become bored with the whole thing when they discover that passwords, signs, and symbols will not help them in business or other profane objectives...."it jes' ain't there".
Masons meet "on the level".
To a Freemason, on the level means just that — all Freemasons are Brothers
who meet on the same level, regardless of their social or economic status
outside the lodge.
Princes, presidents, and captains of business are no better or more important than bus drivers, plumbers, and paper boys when they sit in the lodge together.
Masonry does not detract from a man’s accomplishments,
nor does it exalt him above his Brothers because of his position outside the
lodge.
So mote it be.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
As a Christian, I must reject all other Gods other than the Father of Jesus as false. In Freemasonry this isn't a requirement and it shouldn't be as Freemasonry isn't a religion. Why does Freemasonry require a belief in a God? If not a religion then what truth or light, even if only speculative, could one find in Freemasonry?
Why is the fraternity's whole concept based on a belief in the Great Architect and why do the rituals follow a death and new birth if it's only for show?
Why didn't the club at least be original enough to come up with their own rituals? Maybe like praying to the secret clan of the Monkey Monkey or the Grand Master really being the guy who mixes the mud? Maybe initiates could mix mortar and lay some brick. I am being facetious and mean no respect.
Why not swear that one will receive 40 lashes with a wet noodle?
If just a club based on Universalism, then don't have rituals like the Mormon church has on dying and being reborn. I do believe the Mormon's Temple rituals are based on Freemasonry whose rituals are based on Universal Christianity. Make up some rituals based on some other religion's rituals or be creative enough to make up your own.
These rituals are just for fun and don't really mean being reborn into anything other than freemasonry.
Masonry doesn't promise any form of salvation but it is a part of the light or truth that rewards are based on works.
I can't hold that against the masons as even some Christians believe that. I just don't understand the concept of works, truth, & light.
I do like that Freemasonry tries to unite brothers. I do like the help they offer. I just wish they didn't parallel Universal Universalism philosophy into their concept & rituals. That in itself, their rebirth ritual, and works for favors from God, would keep me from participating.
I'm just one individual weird thinking person who may be over thinking the whole concept of the parallels between Christianity & Freemasonry.
Why is the fraternity's whole concept based on a belief in the Great Architect and why do the rituals follow a death and new birth if it's only for show?
Why didn't the club at least be original enough to come up with their own rituals? Maybe like praying to the secret clan of the Monkey Monkey or the Grand Master really being the guy who mixes the mud? Maybe initiates could mix mortar and lay some brick. I am being facetious and mean no respect.
Why not swear that one will receive 40 lashes with a wet noodle?
If just a club based on Universalism, then don't have rituals like the Mormon church has on dying and being reborn. I do believe the Mormon's Temple rituals are based on Freemasonry whose rituals are based on Universal Christianity. Make up some rituals based on some other religion's rituals or be creative enough to make up your own.
These rituals are just for fun and don't really mean being reborn into anything other than freemasonry.
Masonry doesn't promise any form of salvation but it is a part of the light or truth that rewards are based on works.
I can't hold that against the masons as even some Christians believe that. I just don't understand the concept of works, truth, & light.
I do like that Freemasonry tries to unite brothers. I do like the help they offer. I just wish they didn't parallel Universal Universalism philosophy into their concept & rituals. That in itself, their rebirth ritual, and works for favors from God, would keep me from participating.
I'm just one individual weird thinking person who may be over thinking the whole concept of the parallels between Christianity & Freemasonry.
ThomasCobb123
Senior Member
If you are aware of the Judgment Seat of Christ, you know that is where Christians receive their rewards for their works. Their salvation is NOT based on their works....and if they haven't accepted Christ, they won't be there in the first place to receive rewards for the works they have done in this life.
Masonic teachings, in no way, conflict with an individual's personal beliefs concerning 'other gods'. (for that matter there are many 'other gods'. To wit: the lust for money, sex, power, athletics, poetry, or even bass fishing. They all can be 'other gods')
Your screen name is certainly appropriate....you've been told all you should know and you're still "artfully dodging" the facts you've received here. Note, I said "dodging"...quite different from "accepting", which in no way is being expected from you at all.
I'm quite sure you just wouldn't fit in, as you indicate.
Not into the Loyal Order of the Moose, the Elks, the Knights of Columbus, or any other fraternal order requiring a profession of belief in a supreme being.
I've probably had this same conversation hundreds of times over the past 50 years....the conclusion is always the same.
A man will get out of the Masons exactly what he puts into it and nothing more.
Do not forget: Masonry is not recruiting or trying any "salesmanship" on you. You would have to recruit Masonry and do the "salesmanship" yourself as to being worthy of acceptance. All candidates must do likewise should they choose to travel the Masonic Rites.
Stay happy.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
You are doing a pretty good job of explaining yourself, Freemasonry, and Christianity. I do not feel I'm dodging the facts. I'm just trying to understand the facts and the justification of the rituals and the parallel of the dying & rebirth, truth & light. Rituals that also include temples and altars, prayers, a moral code, & Bibles. Why would one use the Holy Bible for a fraternity with no religious affliation? A fraternity that only requires a belief in a Supreme Being. The Bible speaks of a Supreme Being and this beings Son. I understand other fraternities and organizations use prayer and or Bibles/Chaplains but as for as I know they aren't promoting a form of Light. If so I would be inclined to not join them either. I don't agree with the Moose or Elks either in their rituals or the requirement of a supreme being.
It appears Christian Masons perform this rebirth concept twice. Once in Christianity and once in Freemasonry. Why does a Christian need another rebirth? What more Light can a Christian gain than from the Holy Spirit?
Why the need of the two parallels? Isn't being born of water & the Holy Spirit the Light needed?
Can you share the light of Freemasonry with other masons who worship other Gods other than the Father of Jesus? The Gods you mentioned are not capable of being the Great Architect. Are the various light colors the different paths one could take to worshipping the Great Architect?
When a Freemason is given "light" by the Worshipful master during his initiation, how does that not conflict with a Christian's belief that Jesus has already brought him into the light from darkness (through salvation)?
Why can you share the Christian Light but not the Masonic Light?
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