New to reloading and have some questions…

[MtnBear]

We are all glad to help you with your questions, but I think Briar has picked up on a point here. Mtn you are getting too much advanced loading information.

Have you read any reloading manuals? If not, this is the first step in starting in your reloading life. Most reloading manuals will answer most of the questions you have ask. All bullet manufacturers produce their own loading manuals listing loads for their products. Lyman to me is one of the best starter manuals.

If you have the ability to print the post from here it maybe helpful to divide them into chapters for your own reloading info book. A note to remember is always check the proper reloading manual before using any load data you get from an internet post. I have two friends that blow rifles up by errors and both were experienced reloaders. One lost and eye and scares on his face the other lost and eye and part of his nose.

Reloading is a dangerous process and we that have been doing it for decades have developed our own policies and procedures that we follow to prevent errors. From what you have stated you are asking our help, with good reason, to help you and we will, but you must do your own work and as with everything else in life you must start at the bottom and work up. You must develop your own reloading program that fits your own life style and environment.

I don't mean for this to sound as a wet blanket on your questions, I just don't want you to get in trouble, and I have seen it happen a number of times when someone used information and data they were not familiar with.

Mtn, please keep asking your questions, it makes us feel good for someone to ask for our knowledge on reloading.

I appreciate it. And I love the suggestion to print this thread, I’ve actually been collecting all the different suggestions and copy/pasting them into a doc on my computer because I’m finding myself re-reading a lot of this stuff 3 or 4 times as I research. The question that sparked the safety rabbit hole concerned the Barnes 150g ttsx bullet and how it behaves at a lower velocity. The question was asked because it was asserted that for the bullet to function properly it needed to be traveling at or beyond 3,000fps… I can’t find that answer why in my loading manual and I suspect that isn’t in the Lee Modern Reloading Manual I just ordered per suggestions here. I appreciate that I can read about most of these subjects on a website or in a book but I signed up to this forum so that I could (in)validate the information I’m reading up on. Technology changes and manufacturing processes become more refined over time. But more important is real world experience with these products. Plus most books and websites have an angle to push and I question the idea that all information in said resources is without bias. True our opinions are slanted and colored by our experience but when a bunch of you have the same experience then I know it’s true.

Again I hope my logic isn’t off putting, I don’t mean to be rude. To put it another way using a point from earlier… with so many of you having decades of experience why wouldn’t I ask every question, even the advanced ones, so that I don’t make costly or deadly mistakes while I advance myself.

 

[Jester896]

The question was asked because it was asserted that for the bullet to function properly it needed to be traveling at or beyond 3,000fps…

when it leaves the muzzle...they have parameters they work best at

you don't seem either off putting or rude...
it does seem you are moving too fast as BriarPatch mentioned.

 

[BriarPatch99]

I don't believe I read anywhere in this post that a Barnes 150 grain TTSX "needs" to be above/at 3000 fps to operate properly .... I said in my opinion impact velocity needs to be at 2200 fps or above ... like I said Barnes gives a lower figure but I am not comfortable with their numbers for full petal extension (maximum diameter) ...

Your question about velocity for the 150 grain TTSX in the 300 Winchester .... I gave you 3300 fps which is near the top velocity(not at the top) for a .300 Winchester ..... I also stated Barnes TTSX need speed to operate properly .... as far as I know ...there is no upper limit on velocity for a TTSX ...only the lower limit for expansion ....

I don't know your hunting experiences .... I know that the 300 Winchester can deliver a Barnes TTSX 150 grain out to about 470 yards and maintain the 2200 fps velocity limit drop I would be comfortable with ....

 

[MtnBear]

when it leaves the muzzle

Right— specifically above 3,300fps. So I’m curious what happens around 3,000fps. According to Barnes using Hunter at minimum load the bullet travels at 3064fps. Does the bullet just go straight through, does it not mushroom and expand? Or is it something else?

 

[MtnBear]

I don't believe I read anywhere in this post that a Barnes 150 grain TTSX "needs" to be above/at 3000 fps to operate properly .... I said in my opinion impact velocity needs to be at 2200 fps or above ... like I said Barnes gives a lower figure but I am not comfortable with their numbers for full petal extension (maximum diameter) ...

Your question about velocity for the 150 grain TTSX in the 300 Winchester .... I gave you 3300 fps which is near the top velocity(not at the top) for a .300 Winchester ..... I also stated Barnes TTSX need speed to operate properly .... as far as I know ...there is no upper limit on velocity for a TTSX ...only the lower limit for expansion ....

I don't know your hunting experiences .... I know that the 300 Winchester can deliver a Barnes TTSX 150 grain out to about 470 yards and maintain the 2200 fps velocity limit drop I would be comfortable with ....

So it’s that the bullet doesn’t expand, but as long as the bullet hits the target above 2,200fps it will function as designed. I was just curious about that because the loading data says minimum load for the 150g ttsx using Ramshot Hunter left the mussel at 3,064fps and I was concerned that I needed to load up closer to maximum to start which seemed dangerous.

But the 2,200fps figure is great because the minimum velocity your ethically allowed to use against large game in Colorado is 2,000fps or 1,000ft lbs. So at minimum load according to the loading chart I’ll be well above the minimum to 400 yards.

Thanks for clarifying @BriarPatch99 ??

 

[BriarPatch99]

Some how you are missing the fact that a Barnes will expand down I believe Barnes says to 1800 fps ...I stated several times that I am more comfortable with the 2200 fps minimum velocity for complete expansion...

What do you think will happen to a Barnes fired at 3000 fps verses 3300 fps ....given the information that I have already posted several times ....

 

[MtnBear]

Some how you are missing the fact that a Barnes will expand down I believe Barnes says to 1800 fps ...I stated several times that I am more comfortable with the 2200 fps minimum velocity for complete expansion...

What do you think will happen to a Barnes fired at 3000 fps verses 3300 fps ....given the information that I have already posted several times ....

I was confused because I miss understood your original point about the bullet requiring additional velocity in your experience. And since I was looking at a minimum load leaving the muzzle at 3,064fps I thought that might mean the bullet wouldn’t work properly at the low end of the load data. Probably a silly concern, but I was afraid that bullets I had purchased would be most accurate under a load where it might not expand properly on impact.

 

[BriarPatch99]

Your 300 Winchester is capable of delivering lots of energy and velocity out a long ways...
You can download it to be like a .308 Winchester if desired ....

The point is the 300 Win can put a bullet at the minimum velocity many yards farther out than can a .308 Win.... the same 150 TTSX bullet is useable in both cartridges ....

I am hoping this makes sense .... if you are able to drive a bullet faster it will maintain the minimum velocity farther than the same bullet started out at 400 fps slower ....

 

[MtnBear]

Your 300 Winchester is capable of delivering lots of energy and velocity out a long ways...
You can download it to be like a .308 Winchester if desired ....

The point is the 300 Win can put a bullet at the minimum velocity many yards farther out than can a .308 Win.... the same 150 TTSX bullet is useable in both cartridges ....

I am hoping this makes sense .... if you are able to drive a bullet faster it will maintain the minimum velocity farther than the same bullet started out at 400 fps slower ....

Makes total sense. And to answer your question from before… I’d expect the bullet to work properly within the ranges Barnes reports on their loading sheet. But I’ve never used the Barnes bullets so I have no real world experience to weigh that information against.

My gut tells me the bullet wouldn’t expand as it is designed at a lower velocity then recommend and at a higher velocity then recommend would fragment on impact? That’s my guess because copper is more tensile than lead and lead is much softer than copper.

 

[BriarPatch99]

Good ....deal ....just keep in mind the minimum expansion velocity ...

Barnes after being asked by several folks I know ...have yet to answer to what degree of expansion the minimum velocity they quote ...what is the ratio to caliber .... in my opinion I want the four copper petals to blossom out like a flower full bloom ... ...

If you have lower velocity the petals mag open some but not fully .... the full open petals and energy dump that happens is what makes the TTSX work so well ....

 

[bullethead]

I appreciate it. And I love the suggestion to print this thread, I’ve actually been collecting all the different suggestions and copy/pasting them into a doc on my computer because I’m finding myself re-reading a lot of this stuff 3 or 4 times as I research. The question that sparked the safety rabbit hole concerned the Barnes 150g ttsx bullet and how it behaves at a lower velocity. The question was asked because it was asserted that for the bullet to function properly it needed to be traveling at or beyond 3,000fps… I can’t find that answer why in my loading manual and I suspect that isn’t in the Lee Modern Reloading Manual I just ordered per suggestions here. I appreciate that I can read about most of these subjects on a website or in a book but I signed up to this forum so that I could (in)validate the information I’m reading up on. Technology changes and manufacturing processes become more refined over time. But more important is real world experience with these products. Plus most books and websites have an angle to push and I question the idea that all information in said resources is without bias. True our opinions are slanted and colored by our experience but when a bunch of you have the same experience then I know it’s true.

Again I hope my logic isn’t off putting, I don’t mean to be rude. To put it another way using a point from earlier… with so many of you having decades of experience why wouldn’t I ask every question, even the advanced ones, so that I don’t make costly or deadly mistakes while I advance myself.

They really do not need to be traveling at 3000fps or faster to work.

I posted the deer damage pics from a 120gr 6.5mm TTSX that had a muzzle velocity of under 2800fps. On impact it was probably traveling 2600fps +/-.
It performed as well as others that I have driven much faster.

With that being said....
As long as accuracy is acheived, there is no disadvantage to driving the TTSX bullets as fast as SAFELY as possible. If your rifle likes them at 2900fps you will kill a lot of game. If you can safely get them moving at 3300fps that is just more gravy on the taters. If you went 3800fps in a 300 Rem Ultra Mag they will still hold together. Added velocity just makes a good thing even better with those bullets. It increases range and penetration at distances where most people can't use but it is there if needed.
Unlike conventional bullets which have impact velocity thresholds, the copper bullets will not disintegrate at high velocity.

 

[MtnBear]

They really do not need to be traveling at 3000fps or faster to work.

I posted the deer damage pics from a 120gr 6.5mm TTSX that had a muzzle velocity of under 2800fps. On impact it was probably traveling 2600fps +/-.
It performed as well as others that I have driven much faster.

With that being said....
As long as accuracy is acheived, there is no disadvantage to driving the TTSX bullets as fast as SAFELY as possible. If your rifle likes them at 2900fps you will kill a lot of game. If you can safely get them moving at 3300fps that is just more gravy on the taters. If you went 3800fps in a 300 Rem Ultra Mag they will still hold together. Added velocity just makes a good thing even better with those bullets. It increases range and penetration at distances where most people can't use but it is there if needed.
Unlike conventional bullets which have impact velocity thresholds, the copper bullets will not disintegrate at high velocity.

That’s great to know, that the copper bullets won’t disintegrate even at extreme velocities. @BriarPatch99 cleared up the minimum velocity confusion. Definitely excited to see how these bullets perform this coming season.

 

[rosewood]

One thing about the added velocity. It ruins a lot more meat and makes processing messier. Something to consider.

Rosewood

 

[bullethead]

One thing about the added velocity. It ruins a lot more meat and makes processing messier. Something to consider.

Rosewood

As with most everything there are trade offs/consequences.

I shoot for heart/lungs if an animal is a safe distance from property lines or deep hollows. Meat damage is non existent and they make it 20 to 50yds on a death run usually the way they are facing.
If I need to put them Down Right There with a high shoulder shot it works but you are right....there is added carnage to the shoulder muscles(meat) bone fragments spiraled out into the meat and some parts of delicious backstraps that are purple from bloodshot.
But they are tradeoffs I am willing to accept in orer to do what I want done.

 

[Darkhorse]

Assuming I am safe, responsible and a reasonable individual… Im asking because I’d rather have a guide to better understand where I am headed instead of having to blaze the trail alone. My view is I start at the finish line and work my way back. As the saying goes, aim away from failure. My problem is I don’t know what failure looks like and if I can learn from your success I want to.

I respect your warning but I’m here to absorb as much information as I can. I apologize if this is off putting or rude.

I must emphatically disagree with the view "start at the finish line and work my way back." This goes against all the rules about reloading and the lessons already learned by your responders." There is a term we use "tickling the dragons tail" it's mainly used concerning adding more powder to try and get a little more velocity. But it can fit other processes also and your thinking is getting you real close.
Do you know how to check for pressure signs in your brass and rifle? Did you know that by the time these pressure signs show themselves your load is already at max or beyond?
I don't trust the theory that all maximum loads in the books are safe in all firearms. Because they are not! Contemplate the results if you start at the top and your rifle won't handle that maximum load.

The proper way, the safe way, is to learn the pressure signs and start at the bottom.
By examining every case you can head off high pressure problems and along the way you might find a more accurate load than max. Trust me. The elk won't know if you just shot him with a max load or one a couple hundred fps less.

 

[bullethead]

It is best to appreciate the skill, methods, time and procedures it takes to load ammo rather than eliminate those learning experiences and go for and use someone else's recipe. There is nothing wrong with using another's recipe but an experienced loader will be able to read between the lines to get a feeling of safety, know whether or not a powder/amount is a good fit, know about the various bullets and basically all the things being asked, answered and expounded upon in here.
I never learned much by doing it right but I always tried to do it correctly. Caution and concentration especially when loading is the difference between whoops and you telling the story or OH NO and someone else telling the story on your behalf about how bad it was.

 

[Permitchaser]

Get a reloading book so you can look up your caliber and find powder amounts and bullets that fit your case's
I use Varget powder

 

[Permitchaser]

When you start case preparation remember to lube the opening of your case before you size it. A stuck shell on your stem is no buano

 

[rosewood]

As with most everything there are trade offs/consequences.

I shoot for heart/lungs if an animal is a safe distance from property lines or deep hollows. Meat damage is non existent and they make it 20 to 50yds on a death run usually the way they are facing.
If I need to put them Down Right There with a high shoulder shot it works but you are right....there is added carnage to the shoulder muscles(meat) bone fragments spiraled out into the meat and some parts of delicious backstraps that are purple from bloodshot.
But they are tradeoffs I am willing to accept in orer to do what I want done.

I discovered the double lung shot a few years back by accident after always shooting to break the shoulder that I had been taught. I have learned just because you have been taught something by someone you respect doesn't mean they really knew what they were talking about. Saves most all the good meat and they never run more than about 50 yards. Many drop within a few feet.

Other thing I learned on my own was to sit in the stand for at least 20 minutes before you go looking unless you can clearly see the deer is down and not breathing. You can't catch a spooked/injured deer. You will just push them further away. Sure wished someone had taught me this, at least one deer I lost that I could most likely have recovered.

Rosewood

 

[Permitchaser]

Also, I think the debate on which bullet for hunting when looking for a sister bullet to the 169g matchking sbt is the gameking 165g but the jury is out on if I ultimately pick the hpbt or sbt so I guess I’ll need to find a box of each to see which one shoots truer on my model 70

Thanks guys!

Your gun will tell you what it likes by the size of the group at 100 yds you should be able to get 1/2” to1/4”
You might want to get a Lead Sled when you shoot a lot with that size caliber