WMA opening delay

[across the river]

They must be some real awesome turkeys hunters out there,the gobbler that has the hens does not have to gobble he already has the hens the gobblers you kill early in the season are the ones he ran off,and then when the other hens go on the nest is when he is easier to kill.

Dude, slow down. I don't set the regulations. I am simply trying to explain to you the rational behind why they are doing it. Studies 40 plus years ago showed gobbling really takes off in late March as gobblers start trying to attract hens. It falls off some as they get henned up in April. By late April most hens are on the nest, and gobbling picks up again as they look for new mates. This isn't new info nor rocket science. Seasons were originally opened in late March in Southern states to correspond to the peak gobbling activity for hunters, but since habitat overall was great, the earlier opener didn't have a ton of impact and populations continued to grow. Populations have steadily declined in the last 20 years or so, in large part due to habitat changes. In the last 10 years GPS studies have allowed them to study turkey movement in an effort to try to understand and fight the decline. They have found that early hunting pressure can impact turkey behavior and negatively impact the time at which hens nest for the worse, which impacts poults recruitment. This is especially true in areas where harvest and pressure is high, i.e. public land. Studies have also shown there is a higher accidental kill of hens in the early season when they are still on their feet than there is when hens are on the nest, which is more of a problem in high pressure areas, i.e. public land. The only hand the DNR really has to play is the harvest limit and season dates. The "goal' is to push out hunting and the harvest of gobblers out past the time at which the majority of hens are already on the nest. In theory, if the hens are already breed and on the nest before the hunting season starts, then hunting has way less impact on nesting and recruitment and the incidental kill rate of hens is also reduced. This is why the survey recently went out to find out what "changes" people preferred, but the goal is still the same, which is to limit hunting and harvest before hens are on the nest.

If a person has private land with good habitat and little pressure, then moving the season back doesn't have much impact, because the pressure isn't really there to begin with. Do you get that? It essentially functions like a tract with no pressure. If a public land tract has tons of pressure, then moving the season to allow the hens there to nest as they would on a low pressure or unhinged tract into April would have an impact, at least in theory. As far as national forest go, I would assume the change would impact all public land, or you are correct in your assessment that they would get hit harder. The DNR changed the deer season on certain national forests, so it would make no sense to do it on one and not the other.
What I am trying to explain to you though, is there is a good reason to change the season dates on WMA's, even if they don't do it on private land. They is plenty of research out there on this, and I'm not just making this stuff up off the top of my head. The DNR has limited options ad they are doing what they can do based on what they know and the research that has been done. Do I think it will really help, maybe, maybe not. But I know for a fact that trying to limit hunting pressure in March and early April on a tract that doesn't really get much in the way of pressure anyway will have way less impact than it would on a tract that gets a ton of pressure.

 

[buckpasser]

I can see you got lost at bell curve. As a simple example, lets say you have 30 hens and 4 mature gobblers on your place. If no one hunts the turkeys at all, then some hens will start breeding and nesting in late march March, a few the first week of April, most say the second week of April, then it tails back off. If you measured the number of hens nesting by week it might look something like 2,6,10,8,4, which would give you a bell curve. By the middle of April most all of the hens are on the nest, because they were able to breed as soon as they were ready.

Nows lets you have a public land place the same size with 30 hens and 4 gobblers that gets pounded. Two gobblers gets killed the first weekend, one goes silent due to pressure, and the other moves off the place, which GPS studies have shown happens. Now if you count the number of hens on the nest by the same week, it would look more like 2,2,4, 6, 4, 3, 3, 2, and some likely don't get breed at all. This is also a bell curve, but it is flatter and more spread out.

In the first scenario, most pouts will hatch fairly close in proximity, which helps survival, and if a hen is unsuccessful nesting the first time, then there is a good chance it could nest a second time. In the second scenario, the nesting is spread out over a much longer period of time, which makes both the nest and poults more prone to predation and limits the chance of a second nesting for most hens.

Yes, hens nest over a period of time, but the length of that time span is impacted by hunting. If it is private land and one gobblers of the four is killed with little pressure on the other three, the bell curve doesn't skew like it would on public land where the pressure is higher. Hence the reason for moving the date back until say week three, where the majority of the hens would be breed before the pressure starts. That is the reason they are moving it.

I honestly don't think it is going to make a huge difference for the population statewide, and people with good habitat will have turkey and those without won't in large part. I don't care when the hen goes on nest, if the nesting habitat isn't good survival is reduced, andif the habitat is excellent, then you can get away with "spreading" the curve out over more weeks, because more of the poults that will each will survive. Now that habitat as a whole across the state has a much lower percentage of early succession habitat than it did 30 years ago, which has impacted quail and rabbits as well, the survival rate for poults has steady gone down. One way to attempt to combat that is to move the season out so more hens have the opportunity to breed and start nesting before the gobblers start getting knocked off. It makes more sense to do that on public land than a "plantation" as you put it, where they are managing habitat anyway and don't try to kill every bird on the place. The March opener we have now has way less impact there than it does on a WMA. If they change it statewide, fine, but to say it doesn't make sense to do it on public land without doing it on private, is not true at all.

You obviously have a firm grasp on the theory that is being proposed as the solution for the “problem”, and we are actually in full agreement on everything there. I also think you would agree that nest predation that hens certainly will experience with a dead fur market will cause many times more disruption than the turkey doc’s theory of dead Toms. My thing is that we’ve already got an active experiment underway without meaning to. South GA is much further along in breeding than North at opening day, so IS SOUTH GA DOING BETTER THAN NORTH???

If so, they’re onto something. If not, it’s dead in the water.

 

[across the river]

You obviously have a firm grasp on the theory that is being proposed as the solution for the “problem”, and we are actually in full agreement on everything there. I also think you would agree that nest predation that hens certainly will experience with a dead fur market will cause many times more disruption than the turkey doc’s theory of dead Toms. My thing is that we’ve already got an active experiment underway without meaning to. South GA is much further along in breeding than North at opening day, so IS SOUTH GA DOING BETTER THAN NORTH???

If so, they’re onto something. If not, it’s dead in the water.

Yeah, but not that far. Like I said earlier, it is a bell curve, and most of the studies I have read from multiple areas across the South have most of the turkeys nested in mid to late April, not March. I'm not saying it is going to work to make populations boom. I've said more times than I can count that I think habitat is the number one factor. I most areas what I see is places with good habitat typically have birds and places without typically don't have a many. If you have 1000 acres of continous 10 year old pine trees with no understory or diversity, I don't care what your limit is or the season dates are. If there isn't good nesting or brooding cover, then I don't think it will have a huge impact, regardless of when you start the season. The fence rows and broom sedge fields of the past are in large part gone, and a lot of turkeys (and quail) left with them. With that being said, I understand why they are doing it. They really don't have any other options.

Racoons are the main predator of nests. I know coyotes get a bad rap, but I've never read a study that shows where they really impact turkeys that much, though people like to claim they do. Like I said earlier, if you have poor nesting cover, then while there may be some benefit to having more hens on the nest at one time, it is limited if they cannot find a good spot to lay eggs and hide.

Again, do I think it will help across the board, probably not. If a private land tract has few turkeys now with limited pressure, I don't see how limiting the pressure that isn't there helps. Could it help on a localized basis on WMA's on on land where habitat is good but pressure is high, possibly. I was simply trying to explain where there is good reason to move the season back on public land, even if you don't do it on private. This is especially true it you are trying to use it as sort of a testing or proving ground to show the benefit of it. Whether or not it actually works is still to be determined.

 

[XIronheadX]

I'm doing my own research in west Ga. with cameras. Seems all the videos I have last year says that the majority of those poults hatched during the second week of May. Back that up 28+14+when she decided to find a nest site.

 

[deerpoacher1970]

Dude, slow down. I don't set the regulations. I am simply trying to explain to you the rational behind why they are doing it. Studies 40 plus years ago showed gobbling really takes off in late March as gobblers start trying to attract hens. It falls off some as they get henned up in April. By late April most hens are on the nest, and gobbling picks up again as they look for new mates. This isn't new info nor rocket science. Seasons were originally opened in late March in Southern states to correspond to the peak gobbling activity for hunters, but since habitat overall was great, the earlier opener didn't have a ton of impact and populations continued to grow. Populations have steadily declined in the last 20 years or so, in large part due to habitat changes. In the last 10 years GPS studies have allowed them to study turkey movement in an effort to try to understand and fight the decline. They have found that early hunting pressure can impact turkey behavior and negatively impact the time at which hens nest for the worse, which impacts poults recruitment. This is especially true in areas where harvest and pressure is high, i.e. public land. Studies have also shown there is a higher accidental kill of hens in the early season when they are still on their feet than there is when hens are on the nest, which is more of a problem in high pressure areas, i.e. public land. The only hand the DNR really has to play is the harvest limit and season dates. The "goal' is to push out hunting and the harvest of gobblers out past the time at which the majority of hens are already on the nest. In theory, if the hens are already breed and on the nest before the hunting season starts, then hunting has way less impact on nesting and recruitment and the incidental kill rate of hens is also reduced. This is why the survey recently went out to find out what "changes" people preferred, but the goal is still the same, which is to limit hunting and harvest before hens are on the nest.

If a person has private land with good habitat and little pressure, then moving the season back doesn't have much impact, because the pressure isn't really there to begin with. Do you get that? It essentially functions like a tract with no pressure. If a public land tract has tons of pressure, then moving the season to allow the hens there to nest as they would on a low pressure or unhinged tract into April would have an impact, at least in theory. As far as national forest go, I would assume the change would impact all public land, or you are correct in your assessment that they would get hit harder. The DNR changed the deer season on certain national forests, so it would make no sense to do it on one and not the other.
What I am trying to explain to you though, is there is a good reason to change the season dates on WMA's, even if they don't do it on private land. They is plenty of research out there on this, and I'm not just making this stuff up off the top of my head. The DNR has limited options ad they are doing what they can do based on what they know and the research that has been done. Do I think it will really help, maybe, maybe not. But I know for a fact that trying to limit hunting pressure in March and early April on a tract that doesn't really get much in the way of pressure anyway will have way less impact than it would on a tract that gets a ton of pressure.

You can read all the research you want to that don't make it true,the pecking order has already been done by the time season starts,you never did answer my question about how many years you have been turkey hunting.

 

[deerpoacher1970]

You’re wasting your time.

Yes he is because there is no proof to back this theory up.

 

[Mexican Squealer]

Most folks don't have private property.

Sounds like you should have gotten a little more edumacation so you could buy some or afford to get in a lease instead of depending on the govt to provide for you

 

[deerpoacher1970]

Sounds like you should have gotten a little more edumacation so you could buy some or afford to get in a lease instead of depending on the govt to provide for you

 

[across the river]

You can read all the research you want to that don't make it true,the pecking order has already been done by the time season starts,you never did answer my question about how many years you have been turkey hunting.

Over 30, and what does "pecking order"; have to do with anything? I have explained everything to you in detail, and your answer is "no its not", like a child. If you want to disagree fine, but please explain why the research isn't true, and in reasonable rational, why it would have no impact. Give some evidence. Right now, you are just mad they are moving the season, and that is all you got.

 

[kmckinnie]

Gracious!

 

[cowhornedspike]

cowhornedspike said:
So do you think delaying the opener statewide is a good idea and will help the turkeys? Or are you just being a jealous pouter who doesn't think it will help but who also doesn't want to see anyone else getting to hunt just because you aren't able to on your favorite WMA?
Asking for a friend...

I am a Guy who hunts a lot of Public WMA Land. Wma Land makes up a Small percentage of the hunting land in Georgia. So how will it help the Turkeys to delay the opener on such a small percentage of land (5%). If it is good for Public WMA land Hunters it should be Good for all the land in Georgia after all we all want to help the Turkeys State Wide don't we?

The Hunting clubs and plantations should help out too.

Well I guess I got my answer...exactly as I suspected...

 

[cowhornedspike]

I'm doing my own research in west Ga. with cameras. Seems all the videos I have last year says that the majority of those poults hatched during the second week of May. Back that up 28+14+when she decided to find a nest site.

Probably longer than that since most birds lay an egg every 2 days on average...and they may have been bred well before the laying starts.

 

[XIronheadX]

Probably longer than that since most birds lay an egg every 2 days on average...and they may have been bred well before the laying starts.

That's the 14 avg. Started nesting in late March.